DH batting 9th
Posted by Andy on May 15, 2011
Last night, Andruw Jones was the starting DH for the Yankees (filling in for Jorge Posada) and he batted 9th, which was going to be Posada's spot before he asked out of the game.
As you might guess, a DH starting in the 9th spot in the lineup doesn't happen all that often:
| Rk | Player | Date | Tm | Opp | Rslt | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mike McCoy | 2011-04-06 | TOR | OAK | W 5-3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 2 | J. P. Arencibia | 2010-09-28 | TOR | NYY | L 1-6 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 3 | Dan Johnson | 2010-08-31 | TBR | TOR | L 5-13 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
| 4 | Jose Molina | 2010-07-09 | TOR | BOS | L 3-14 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| 5 | Rusty Ryal | 2010-06-17 | ARI | BOS | L 5-8 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 6 | Randy Ruiz | 2010-05-17 | TOR | MIN | L 3-8 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 7 | Omar Vizquel | 2010-05-14 | CHW | KCR | L 1-6 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 8 | Fernando Perez | 2009-10-02 | TBR | NYY | W 13-4 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| 9 | Jose Molina | 2009-10-02 | NYY | TBR | L 4-13 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 10 | Tyler Flowers | 2009-09-23 | CHW | MIN | L 6-8 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 11 | Tyler Flowers | 2009-09-19 | CHW | KCR | W 13-3 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| 12 | Howie Kendrick | 2009-08-16 | LAA | BAL | W 17-8 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| 13 | Josh Fields | 2009-07-27 | CHW | MIN | L 3-4 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 14 | Josh Fields | 2009-07-20 | CHW | TBR | W 4-3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
| 15 | Seth Smith | 2009-06-28 | COL | OAK | W 3-1 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| 16 | Russ Adams | 2009-06-25 | TOR | CIN | L 5-7 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 17 | Russ Adams | 2009-06-24 | TOR | CIN | W 8-2 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| 18 | Mitch Jones | 2009-06-23 | LAD | CHW | W 5-2 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 19 | Seth Smith | 2009-06-22 | COL | LAA | W 11-1 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
| 20 | Mitch Jones | 2009-06-19 | LAD | LAA | L 4-5 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 21 | Jose Bautista | 2009-05-18 | TOR | CHW | W 3-2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
| 22 | Travis Snider | 2009-05-04 | TOR | CLE | L 7-9 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 23 | Ben Francisco | 2009-05-04 | CLE | TOR | W 9-7 | 6 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 24 | Kelly Shoppach | 2009-04-29 | CLE | BOS | L 5-6 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 |
Some observations about this list:
- This list goes back to the 2009 season, and a few players appear twice. Jose Molina is one of them, but he did it for two different teams!
- Many of these occasions seem to me to perhaps be cases where the regular DH got the day off and a backup player was pulled off the bench to fill in at DH, and logically stuck at the 9th spot in the order.
- There are 4 games on there from NL teams (two each from the Dodgers and Rockies.) I wonder what happened there--please don't tell me that the manager simply stuck a DH in for the pitcher at the 9th spot and didn't otherwise adjust his lineup? I guess that's possible if the manager strongly believed in the sanctity of his normal lineup and that he didn't want to move guys around. I have a hard time believing, however, that any given team doesn't have a batter who is normally a reserve player who is a better hitter than one of the other starting 8, therefore deserving to be higher in the batting order. Maybe it's a confidence thing--like the manager didn't want to move their normal 8th-place batter down to 9th, just in case it made him feel really bad about his hitting?
May 15th, 2011 at 10:05 am
The DHs on this list had 22 hits in 96 AB for a .229 BA. They also had 12 HR and 5 BB. Any idea how these numbers compare to overall DH stats (assuming that most other DHs are hitting in the heart of the order)? Do these 9th-slotted DHs perform more poorly that DHs in general?
May 15th, 2011 at 10:18 am
There's also a Diamondbacks game on there, for the record.
May 15th, 2011 at 10:33 am
@2
Interleague play, Mike?
May 15th, 2011 at 10:50 am
I DHed once in high school and hit leadoff. It felt weird. Not only was I not a prototypical leadoff hitter (I wasn't much of any type of hitter, for the record), but I always assumed a DH should be a masher. Obviously, there are ample reasons to justify a leadoff hitter as a DH, but it seems hard to do so in the 9th spot. If a hitter is "only" good enough to hit 9th, either the team is stacked OR the team made a bad decision about who to use as DH. Or they are simply crappy at filling out the lineup card.
May 15th, 2011 at 10:51 am
Jose Bautista being on this list makes me laugh a bit, considering what he has done over the last year and two months.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:03 am
Of the 6 players who made the list twice, Molina is also the only one whose appearances aren't within a week of each other.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:22 am
@1
Their total line was actually 96 PA, 86 AB, 22 H, 15 R, 5 2B, 0 3B, 3 HR, 12 RBI, 5 BB, in 24 games played. Pretty average numbers, for a DH or anybody else. The runs scored is maybe a little higher than you'd expect, but of course the sample size is tiny.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:37 am
@5
BSK, had a similar thought.
What a dog's breakfast of DHs Toronto has had over the past few years! Russ Adams, Randy Ruiz.... puhlease.
Andy, promise not to mention Posada again for at least five blogs? 🙂
May 15th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Neil, I can make no such promise. See comment #33 on the earlier Posada thread:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11066#comments
Mike D hits the nail on the head as to why this is such an interesting issue as it is unfolding.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:54 am
There is a premise that teh #9 hitter is the worst hitter in the lineup. I am sure tony LaRussa doesn;t buy that premise, and I don;t either.
I feel 39 should be somewhat of a second leadoff hitter, who can get on base and potentially set up a big inning for 2, 3, and 4.
I would be curious to see how many leadoff hiters are in the 8th spot.
May 15th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
There are 2 games on here where both teams had their DH ninth: 2009-05-04 CLE@TOR and 2009-10-02 NYY@TBR.
May 15th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
In fact, one of the first things I did, BEFORE I read the third comment, was to see how many interleague games were there, to see if any DH's were just stuck into the pitcher's customary #9 spot.
I'm not surprised that DH-for-pitcher substitutions in the #9 spot are rare, for all of the reasons that others have mentioned. The Phillies have traditionally used someone like Raul Ibanez or Pat Burrell who is in the everyday lineup for his bat, not his glove, as the DH and kept him in his normal slot. The substitute fielder is then inserted somewhere else in the line-up, although usually the customary #8 hitter has been moved down to #9.
So this brings up a question that is probably not easily obtained, if at all, from easy use of the Play Index here and thus has to be solved by fans' memories. Have there been instances when a National League team who is using one of their everyday starters in a road interleague or World Series game as the DH also inserts the player who is taking the usual DH's place into the #9 spot in the line-up?
I just did a Play Index search for All-Star Game 1973-2010 (don't remember the first year they used the DH, so I went back to the first AL DH year), "Any" or equivalent checked for most, DH - Played any of those marked, Batting Order Position 9th, and PA >= 1. I came up empty. Here, I was interested in either team, AL or NL, because of the fact that the team batting the DH 9th may just happen to have 8 great hitters to go ahead of him.
I did the same thing for Postseason 1973-2010, which I knew could give me some ALDS and ALCS results, but I was mainly looking for World Series games involving National League 9th-hitting DH's. I don't know how to put a neat table into a message, and if I posted the page link I have, non-subscribers might not be able to see it. So here are some highlights:
I found the following World Series examples:
1978-10-17 - Vic Davalillo for Los Angeles against the Yankees, game 6.
1984-10-09 - Kurt Bevacqua for San Diego against Detroit, game 1.
The Giants used the DH in the 9th spot in all four games in Anaheim in the 2002 World Series:
Game 1 - Tom Goodwin, followed by Tsuyoshi Shinjo
Game 2 - Shawon Dunston
Game 6 - Dunston, followed by Goodwin
Game 7 - Pedro Feliz, followed by Shinjo
2004-10-24 - ex-Phillie Marlon Anderson, followed by then-future Phillie So Taguchi for St. Louis against Boston, game 2.
2007-10-24 and 10-25 - Ryan Spilborghs for Colorado against Boston, games 1 and 2.
In every one of the above World Series, the American League team won. So, batting the DH 9th may not have been such a great idea. Or maybe the team just didn't have a suitable 9th offensive player to stick into the line-up, either in the #9 spot or elsewhere. The 2002 Giants, who came the closest to winning, appears to have had a "musical DH" spot.
Anderson (L) and Taguchi (R) batted from opposite sides of the plate, so that mid-game switch was likely a lefty-right thing in response to a pitching change. If the Cardinals had forced a return to Boston for at least a game 6 instead of being swept, maybe we would have seen one or both of them serving as DH and hitting #9 again.
I did not find any instances of an AL team using the DH in the #9 spot in the World Series. In the 2004 postseason, Kenny Lofton served as the DH and batted in the 9-hole for the Yankees in one ALDS game against the Twins and two ALCS games against the Red Sox. (Both of the latter games were among those first three in that series that were won by the Yankees.) No other ALDS or ALCS game featured a DH hitting 9th.
May 15th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
In response to something else posted here a while back, I posted that I thought I remembered seeing box scores back in the 1980s with Ken Phelps serving as the DH and batting 9th for Seattle. But the Play Index does not give me any such results. He played in 464 games as DH, but none were in the 9th spot. He appeared in 59 games in the 9th spot, but all were as pinch hitter (PH). Maybe the game I saw was one in which he replaced the starting DH. In such cases, if that spot doesn't come up again, the player who is effectively the new DH is just considered to have been a pinch hitter, not the designated hitter, for that game. But my brain may have considered him to be a DH in such a game. And if there really was such a game, it would have been another instance of the DH batting 9th, no matter who that starting DH was.
Also, in the late 1970s/early 1980s time frame, there was a trend in the AL of having a good hitting DH hit 9th, to combine with a potent top of the order.
May 15th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Gotta post this somewhere. Bautista is coming up with a chance to hit his 4th HR of the game. Knowing his unselfishness he probably would take a walk rather than swing at a bad pitch
May 15th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Darn, a force out!
May 15th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
@13, DoubleDiamond -- According to the B-R batting splits pages:
"Note that Pinch Hitting appearances replacing the Designated Hitter are included in both the as DH split and as PH split. They are also listed separately in the as PH for DH category."
After trying a number of different game searches for Phelps, I think B-R is correct that he never batted 9th as a DH, either starting or as a PH/DH. I searched for games in which Phelps was a DH and a sub; it returned 54 games, with his position listed as "PH DH" in 53 games and "PR DH" in 1 game. The 53 games agrees with the "PH for the DH" entry on his career batting splits. Then, I searched for games in which he batted #9, it found 62 games, all listing his position as "PH" -- which also agrees with his batting splits page. So I can't see any reason to think that there are any Phelps "PH/DH/batting 9th" games that are not accurately captured in the B-R stats.
Of course, I could be wrong!
May 15th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
@14-15, Neil L. -- I was thinking the same about J.B.
What's more, he had a chance to hit a 3rd HR of the game off reliever Kevin Slowey. I wonder if that's ever been done, 3 HRs off a single reliever? Can't think of a direct way to check it, though.
May 15th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Updating the rolling Jose Bautista HR count:
-- 64 HRs in his last 162 games played.
-- 59 HRs in Toronto's last 162 games played.
P.S. Target Field hasn't played that big to Bautista.
In 7 games there, he's 12 for 31 with 7 HRs and 12 RBI.
May 15th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
@8 @9
Andy, with respect, and at risk of belaboring a point, there are many late thirties players struggling for playing time and to put up decent numbers in the face of age. Johnny Damon for the Rays at age 37 and Jose Molina, another catcher, at age 36 with Toronto.
So why is the Posada "saga" a big deal in BRef or in the baseball media?
Mike D indeed wrote eloquently in post @33 in the blog you linked
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11066#comments
So is the interest in the Posada story his age, 39, or the fact that he is a Yankee?
May 15th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
@18
But, JA, still a pretty decent SLG and OPS at Target Field for Bautista.
May 15th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
And just for laughs:
Batista's OPS is currently 1.388. That would be the 2nd-best season mark ever.
He has 16 HRs in 114 AB, and a .520 OBP.
May 15th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
#12 I remember that 1978 WS game where Davillio DHd and batted 9th. It was the first thing I thought of when I read the headline of this blog post. The announcers pointed this out as a serious disadvantage for LA...and of course, they lost the game and the series that night.
May 15th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
@21
John Autin, here is a crooked number. Jose Bautista is on a pace, if he doesn't miss another game this season, to hit 77 flippin' home runs.
Without help in a needle!
May 15th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
@23, Neil L. -- We hope he's doing it clean; we may even presume so, since testing is in place. But can we know? I'm not insinuating anything at all; just saying, I'd rather not make any pronouncements.
May 15th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
JA-
While we can't ever know if he used, I think we can say that Bautista is accomplishing his feats during the most stringently regulated period in baseball history with regards to PEDs. Bautista, to this point, is not only mashing HRs, but he's passing drug tests like Woh and should be recognized for such.
May 15th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
@24
Of course, John Autin, I don't know.
If Jose is juicing, I'll stop believing in Santa Claus, good vs. evil, innocence vs. experience, naivete vs cynicism. Yes there is some degree of blind trust.
Your take, JA, I suppose is that San Francisco fans couldn't have possibly believed Barry was guilty
My point, John, in another blog, is the lack of apparent effect on his body. Does he have to take off his shirt in front of us to make us believers?
In all the Bautista Blue Jays' games I've watched and all the television interviews and sound bites given in the local media his physique, with his shirt on, clearly, seems the same!
May 15th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
It's clear by now that Bautista is capable of hitting 60+ HRs this year.
But just to keep things in perspective, I ran the leaders in HRs over a team's first 40 games, from 1919-92:
-- 19, Mickey Mantle, 1956 (finished with 52)
-- 18, Babe Ruth, 1928 (54)
-- 18, Willie Mays, 1964 (47)
-- 18, Frank Howard, 1968 (44)
-- 18, Cy Williams, 1923 (41)
-- 17, Jimmie Foxx, 1932 (58)
-- 17, Willie Mays, 1965 (52)
-- 17, Mark McGwire, 1992 (42)
-- 17, Roy Campanella, 1953 (41)
-- 17, Jose Canseco, 1990 (37)
All these guys had more HRs at the 40-game pole than Bautista has, but none wound up with more than 58 HRs, and the average was 47.
Meanwhile, Maris '61 had 13 HRs after 40 Yankee games, as did Mantle.
(I drew the line at 1992 to steer clear of the "PED era" -- but maybe I should have excluded Canseco '90 for the same reason....)
May 15th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
@27John, there have been 40 Toronto games so far this year, but only 32 Bautista games, including today. He missed three games due to the birth of a child and the rest due to a kinked neck from sleeping wrong in a NY hotel room.
So Jose's stats are in HIS first 32 games this year. How does that jive with history pro-rated over the remaining 122 games?
I'm not saying he will continue at this insane pace but his season bears watching.....
May 15th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
Neil, BSK -- As I said, I have no reason at all to suspect Bautista of anything, and I don't. In fact, when Bautista started mashing last year, I defended him in these threads when knee-jerk suspicions were expressed.
But:
-- Not all PED users have noticeable changes in body mass.
-- Recent reports have cast doubt on the thoroughness of MLB drug testing practices. According to information released by Bud Selig's office, only about 10 percent of baseball players had been tested for drugs in the 2010 off-season.
http://www.24sportsnews.com/top-news/m-l-b-report-casts-doubt-on-rigor-of-drug-testing
So I'm sticking with my agnostic viewpoint for now.
I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with it, though.
May 15th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
I suppose a lineup with a real hitter batting 9th as DH is somewhat stronger than one with a pitcher batting 9th, but part of me has always wondered that if you're going to hit the DH 9th, what's the point of having a DH?
May 15th, 2011 at 7:47 pm
@28, Neil -- It's a fair point that Bautista has only played 32 games this year. But I'm not comfortable projecting him to play a greater percentage of the team's games the rest of the way. Sure, he played 161 games last year -- but that was his first time over 142 games in a season.
So far this year, he's missed a 3-game stretch (due to "a personal matter," from all I can find), and a 5-game stretch due to a sore neck. Will the neck flare up again? I have no reason to think it will, but I just don't think it would be a sound statistical practice to project him playing every game the rest of the way.
I know, I know -- I'm a party pooper.
But he does project to 65 HRs even at his current rate of play, which is still pretty cool, right?
May 15th, 2011 at 9:15 pm
JA-
I'm fine with that viewpoint. My point was only that we should make a distinction between the questions we have now versus the questions we have prior to 2004. Prior to 2004, there was literally no way of knowing or having much confidence one way or another. At least right now we can say that Jose is meeting all the requirements as stipulated by baseball, which, as you note, may not be a strong as we believe. Still, they are a lot stronger than they were.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
Put me in the agnostic camp when it comes to Bautista, and all ballplayers.
I'll never declare a player clean, because I just don't know. And I'll never declare a player guilty, unless he fails some sort of test.
The Steroid Era should be renamed the PED Era. We have an approximate start date, but I believe we will never have an end date. Players are always looking for an edge, which means some players will be open to using the latest designer PEDs.
May 15th, 2011 at 11:25 pm
MikeD-
Do you consider amphetamines to be PEDs? If so, our start date gets pushed back a few decades and the number of players we can't declare as clean grows exponentially.
If you do not consider amphetamines to be a PED, how and why do you make this distinction?
May 16th, 2011 at 12:08 am
Wow. I looked up the lineups for a couple of those NL games (two Dodgers games where Mitch Jones batted 9th in 2009)
In both those games, Orlando Hudson batted 3rd and Casey Blake hit cleanup.
Ethier and Kemp were active in both those games, btw. Manny, of course, was suspended.
May 16th, 2011 at 6:27 am
I'm really surprised not to see Jerry Manuel's New York Mets on the list. He religiously batted players by position: the second baseman always hit second no matter if it was Castillo or Cora or whomever, centerfielder third, first baseman fourth, even when Catalanotto was filling in.
And BSK @ 34- I will assume that everyone is aware that amphetamines are a stimulant and that the meth in "meth addict" is short for methamphetamine. Hitting requires almost perfect hand-eye co-ordination. Other sports that also do would be sharp-shooting, archery and the biathlon (a winter Olympic sport combining cross-country skiing and sharp-shooting) yet because of those sports the Olympic committee banned beta-blockers, DRUGS THAT BLOCK THE EFFECT OF ADRENALIN, your bodies own naturally occurring amphetamine. Why? Because amphetamines (and adrenalin) cause your hands to shake. Blocking that effect improves hand-eye co-ordination.
In short, taking amphetamines may have given someone more energy to get on the field in a late season game in 100+ degree heat or to run after fly balls or hustle to back up third. They never made anyone a better hitter.
May 16th, 2011 at 6:41 am
Hartvig-
Thanks. That is a really interesting perspective. Would you apply this logic to any substance that doesn't really improve performance? Many steroids/PEDs have proven generally ineffective, while others are wildly effective.
May 16th, 2011 at 8:35 am
BSK- I just finished typing a very long response to your question and my internet connection went down for a second and it was lost. I'm afraid I don't have the time or inclination to do it again. Sorry.
May 16th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Let's stop the steroids discussion here, there's no connection between the #9 spot and steroids. This has turned into the "OMG is Bautista juiced" thread.
May 16th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Hartvig, I'm sure you know more about amphetamines than I.
But if they hurt your hand-eye coordination, why would so many players use them when hand-eye coordination is key?
And would you say baseball players would benefit from using beta blockers? I am surprised we have never heard about that.
And what about the improved mental focus caused by amphetamines? Couldn't that help someone hit?
May 16th, 2011 at 11:30 pm
@39, Brendan Burke -- What are you talking about? You must not have read the posts. Saying this has turned into the "OMG is Bautista juiced" thread is more hysterical than anything I've heard anyone say about Bautista on this site.
In this thread, there have been 2 posts that expressed benign agnosticism on the question of Bautista or any other given player being clean. Not one accusation, not one insinuation, nothing at all aimed at Bautista.
May 17th, 2011 at 2:33 am
When Omar Vizquel was coming up in 1989, I wonder what the probability of him DH'ing a game 21 years later in 2010 was.