30 Responses to “Mariano Rivera and 1000 games while pitching for only 1 team”

1. Austyn Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 8:44 pm

   Eh.

2. Fred Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 9:58 pm

   Nice trivia but those other guys were starters who threw more than three outs then took a shower with a souvenir ball. This is not to detract from what he does and has done as a closer. Rivera has 1170 total innings pitched, mostly one at a time. Walter Johnson had 5914.1innings and 531 times (88%) he did it 9 at a time. It's like comparing a sprinter with a marathon runner.
   Rivera would not have survived in that era, heck he wouldn't have survived in the Drysdale/Koufax/Gibson era. Not a slight on him but 2 pitches don't cut it consistently over 9 innings.

3. Dan Berman4 Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 10:10 pm

   There's just no way to compare a starter with a closer. Or even Walter Johnson with Pedro Martinez. Everything is different now. I doubt the Big Train lifted weights or even worked out much in the off season. It's fascinating how polarized these debates become. Some don't think Rivera should be in the HoF, others says greatest ever. Quit a gap there.

   http://pinetarandbrickbats.blogspot.com/2011/05/mariano-riveras-milestone.html

4. John Autin Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

   There are a dozen different ways to express the same basic fact: Mariano Rivera has been excellent every year ... for a team with very deep pockets.

   Taking a different angle on Andy's original list:

   100 pitchers have pitched at least 600 games in relief.
   -- The median number of franchises played for is 6.
   -- Rivera is the only one to play for just 1 team.
   -- Four have pitched for just 2 teams: Jeff Montgomery, Todd Worrell, Dave Smith and Greg Minton.
   -- 29 have played for at least 8 different teams, led by Ron Villone (12).

5. John Autin Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 10:37 pm

   @2, Fred -- It seems to me that players adapt their ability to play in the conditions that they face. I can't prove that Mariano would have been a great pitcher 50 or 100 years ago, but neither can you prove that he wouldn't have done so.

   You said, "Rivera would not have survived in that era." Why not? There were relief specialists in Walter Johnson's day. Doc Crandall was a key member of the 1911-13 pennant-winning NY Giants, pitching mostly in relief, and Claude Jonnard filled that same role for the 1922-24 Giants (also NL champs), starting just 4 times. Firpo Marberry was a star reliever for Washington in the 1920s, often finishing what Walter Johnson started. Even if Mariano couldn't pitch more than an inning or two at a time, do you really think that no team would have found a way to make good use of what he could give? I have a feeling McGraw would have found a spot for him.

   Lastly, Walter Johnson threw only 2 pitches, and Ty Cobb said Barney's curve "had just a wrinkle on it." Johnson was almost as reliant on his fastball as Rivera is on his cutter.

6. Neil L. Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 10:40 pm

   Mariano Rivera is the Cal Ripken of pitchers, the Steve Yzerman of hockey players.

   There is no diminishing his stature in baseball lore into the future. That being said, I agree with posters who distinguish between starters and relievers on the list.

   His run with the Yankees is made all the more amazing by the fact that closers are notoriously "promiscious", shopping their talents around every time they become free agents.

   There has been a unique chemistry between Mariano and New York throughtout his career, perhaps rarely again duplicated.

7. Johnny Twisto Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 11:22 pm

   2 pitches don't cut it consistently over 9 innings.

   How many pitches did Walter Johnson throw?

   And why wouldn't Rivera throw more pitches if he needed to?

8. Fred Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 11:22 pm

   @ John Austin
   He wouldn't have survived because one pitch doesn't stay unhittable for 9 innings and no I don;t think they'd have kept him around just to pitch an inning a game now and then.
   I wasn't there for Johnson but I was around for Drysdale Koufax and Gibson. The relief crews were mostly former starters, everyone wanted you to go give them 9 every 4th day. True Koufax had two pitches and telegraphed them both but to paraphrase a quote, I watched Koufax and I've watched Rivera, Rivera is no Koufax. If Rivera were starter caliber the Yankees would have made him a starter. He started 10 times in 95 and had a 5.51 ERA and a 1.5 WHIP. The Yankees seriously needed starters and if he'd been starter caliber he'd have been a starter. But as I said that does not make his accomplishments as a closer any less outstanding. It's just apples and oranges.

9. Johnny Twisto Says:
   May 25th, 2011 at 11:26 pm

   And JA beat me to those points.

   Anyway....some people get very defensive when they read more into lists than is intended. It's just a fact -- Rivera has pitched many more games for only one team than any other pitcher. It doesn't really *mean* anything. It doesn't make him better than anyone else on the list. We all know what his role is. I find it interesting, nonetheless.

10. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:40 pm

    If Rivera were starter caliber the Yankees would have made him a starter. He started 10 times in 95 and had a 5.51 ERA and a 1.5 WHIP. The Yankees seriously needed starters and if he'd been starter caliber he'd have been a starter.

    We've been through this. Ten starts, only two of which came on a regular turn. In Greg Maddux's first 10 starts he had a 5.92 ERA and 1.72 WHIP.

    And I don't know why you think their starting pitching was so dire. Entering '96 they had an ace in Cone. Pettitte had proven himself as a rookie. A good veteran in Rogers arriving. Key and Kamieniecki returning from injuries. Depth in Gooden. They traded away a promising Hitchcock before the season. There have certainly been better and deeper staffs in history but the team did allow the 3rd fewest runs in the league.

    Everyone seems to think Neftali Feliz is capable of being a quality starter. But he went back to the pen this season, and he said he wants to stay there. In 20 years people will be saying if he could start, he would have. It doesn't always work out like that. Sometimes pitchers find a niche and just end up there. Baseball is afraid to mess with success.

11. John Autin Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:48 pm

    But Fred @8 -- You're the only one comparing Rivera to Koufax and Johnson. Andy's post contains nothing but facts about Rivera and a list of players who met a given set of criteria.

    You're the one comparing apples and oranges. You're equating what Mariano Rivera became -- a closer able to dominate most of the time with just one pitch -- with all that he might have become if he'd played in different times or in different circumstances.

    Did you know that Rivera was a very successful starting pitcher in 5 of his 6 years in the minors? Check it out:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=rivera002mar

    Did you know that he threw a 5-inning perfect game at AAA the same year he debuted in the majors?

    The only basis on which to say that Rivera could not have been a successful starter in the major leagues is the 10 starts he made as a rookie with the Yanks in 1995. Ten starts? How many rookies struggled in their first year before becoming stars?

    As events played out, the Yankees decided in '96 to try Mariano as a reliever. Not a short reliever, by the way; he had 8 games of 3 innings that year, and more than half his outings went 2+ IP. But he was so phenomenally effective -- placing 3rd in the Cy Young Award vote as a setup man -- that they never really thought about moving him back into a starting role. Their high-salaried closer from '96 was a free agent, and they decided to save some money and move Mariano into that role. The rest is history.

12. John Autin Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:50 pm

    Dammit, JT, we need a signal, or I need to learn to write faster....

13. Dan Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:55 pm

    @ Fred
    In 56 Koufax's ERA+ and WHIP were both worse than Mo's 95 season.

    Also, basing Mariano's ability to start effectively with one pitch on his 95 season is insane because Mariano didnt develop the cutter until after he became a premier closer.

14. Jimbo Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 1:01 am

    From 2004-2010, Rivera's IP reduced every season, slowly decreasing from 78.2 IP to 60.0 IP.

    I'm sure there's a couple of records in there, for most consecutive IP reductions, and for smallest IP lost year to year over a stretch of consecutively decreasing years.

15. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 1:12 am

    Slightly related: reminds me of Jason Giambi hitting for a higher BA than last season in each of his first 7 seasons
    and
    Don Mattingly's career BA dropping after each of his last 9 seasons 🙁
    ==============================================
    JA, nothing wrong with going tag-team on the non-believers!

16. jason Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 1:59 am

    i don't think there's a question that mariano would be a competent starter, even an above average one. it's just would he be really great. would the cutter stay like that for 6 to 9 innings so he could be a bonafide ace every time out, or would it become average late in games, forcing him to come up with several average at best ad-hoc pitches, and making him suffer the same wild variances that average starters face in their effectiveness.

    really though i think it should be mentioned that the numbers seem to say that all relievers are just people too crappy to be starters and are by definition less valuable than starters, except in the case of mariano. and that in itself speaks volumes. he is by far and away the best closer ever.

17. RobM Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:00 am

    @2 -- Not a slight on him but 2 pitches don't cut it consistently over 9 innings.
    ---------------

    Tell that to the number-two guy on the list, Walter Johnson, who according to The Neyer/James guide to pitchers threw two pitches -- a fastball and a curveball.

    Doing a quick flip through the book, I see others pitchers who did quite well with two pitches. Tommy John basically threw one pitch, a sinking fastball about 90% of the time. Ron Guidry -- fastball, slider; Randy Johnson for large stretches of his career was a two-pitch pitcher, mixing in a change for show, and that's the point.

    Rivera's greatness, to me, is based on two things. His cutter and his ability to repeat his delivery as well as any pitcher in the game, providing great command. This would serve him well as a starter as he mixed in other pitchers, but I'm be surprised if he didn't throw his cutter 70% of the time, even as starter. The history of MLB says pitchers can do this if they have a dominant pitcher. I think we can agree he has a dominant pitch.

    Anyway, kind of pointless discussion since we can only judge Rivera on what he's done as a reliever, which is quite extraordinary. Yes, as noted, the 1,000 appearances is assisted by playing for a team that can afford to keep him. Yet that misses point. He's pitched in 1,000 FREAKING MLB games and the reason he's done it all for one team is his career has been all peak. There's never been a reason for the Yankees to let him go.

18. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:27 am

    To somewhat argue against myself now....
    Rivera did develop the sinker and has used it, in varying amounts, over the past several years. But even if one counts that as a separate pitch (and I do, though both are variations of the fastball), he has no off-speed pitch. And I can't remember him ever throwing anything off-speed in the past ~15 seasons. He threw breaking balls as a SP, and he may have thrown some in his first year or two in the pen -- I can't remember. (Certainly if he had remained a SP he would have used more pitches.)

    The one successful SP I can name who hardly changed speeds is Roger Clemens. I think he was a different pitcher early in his career. But by the time he was with the Yankees, which is when I mostly saw him, he mostly threw two pitches: fastball and splitter. His fastball velocity varied, and when it was way up there he was unhittable, but it was usually in the low-mid 90s. And he threw a very hard splitter, not losing as much velocity off his fastball as most pitchers do, usually at around 90. So a good 90+% of his pitches came in at, say, 88-94 mph. He occasionally threw a slider -- I don't remember its usual speed -- and in his Yankee days it didn't have much bite. It was basically a "show-me" pitch, just used to change speeds.

    Clemens was a bit up-and-down as a Yankee, but certainly pitched some great ball for them. And he pitched some great ball for Houston afterwards, and he looked liked the same pitcher on the occasions I saw him then. So it is certainly possible to succeed as a SP with not only a limited repertoire, but without (drastically) changing speeds.

19. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:37 am

    Randy Johnson for large stretches of his career was a two-pitch pitcher, mixing in a change for show

    Randy Johnson was quite a disappointment as a Yankee (though his first season was better than Yankee fans remember). Anyway, he had another pitch, the splitter, which was quite good. And for some reason, he hardly used it. I remember one game he pitched (in my memory, it was early in the season and vs Detroit, but this game* doesn't look quite dominant enough) in which he used the splitter a lot to great effect. And then it went right back on the shelf. I could never understand that, especially since his slider rarely had any bite in NY.

    *http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET200605290.shtml

20. RobM Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:53 am

    @18, Rivera in the minors (by his own description) was a "fastball, changeup, slider guy," and that's what he first bought to the majors as a starter. I do remember him throwing a changeup, but he eventually shelved it as he developed the cutter. Rivera's velocity increased at the end of his AAA career, and he developed the cutter more than a year into him MLB career, so it's impossible to compare Rivera-the-starter in the minor leagues with Rivera the MLB pitcher. They are two different beings.

21. RobM Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:58 am

    @19, Johnny Twisto, ahh, yes, didn't Johnson have a name for his splitter? It might have been something as silly as Mr. Splitty.

    It was interesing when I did a quick spin through the Neyer/James guide before to note that in addition to pitchers who were successful throwing two pitches (or mostly) that many pitchers (and Randy Johnson was one of them) who added and subtracted pitches for varioius stretches in their careers. I guess to pitch 20-plus year, changes have to be made.

    Yes, Johnson was disappointing in his Yankee years. I knew there was going to be a problem when he was only hitting 93 mph early on. He had lost velocity, and his slider was flatter than in previous years. His first year, though, still wasn't bad, it just wasn't up to his past.

22. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 3:01 am

    it's impossible to compare Rivera-the-starter in the minor leagues with Rivera the MLB pitcher. They are two different beings.

    Agreed. And even Rivera-as-reliever has been more than one being, although mass media would have us believe otherwise. In my memory (and you, or anyone, can correct me), in '96 he threw mostly 4-seamers up in the zone. By about '98 he had developed the cutter and threw it mostly to the left side of the plate. Then he starting moving the cutter around more. Then he started throwing the sinker to righties, infrequently at first, but with more consistency by the mid-'00s. Of late I'd say he's gone back to more cutters (to both sides) and fewer sinkers than a few years ago. (And it's always hard to say how many 4-seamers he still throws -- are they just cutters which didn't move as much?)

23. Johnny Twisto Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 3:04 am

    Mr. Splitty is right. I remember that from his ARZ days though. Don't remember anyone using that name when he got to the Yanks (I guess cause he hardly threw it) (it seems like something Kay would have had a field day with).

    I wanna say Clemens also started calling his Mr. Splittee, or some close variant.

24. Andy Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 6:02 am

    I think JA has made the key point in #5 above--it's fairly likely that Rivera would have adapted to different conditions over time had he remained a full-time starter.

    I find it remarkably foolish to say that Rivera would never have cut it as a starter with just 2 pitches. It's just as foolish as if I were to say he definitely would have been a great starting pitcher. It's impossible to know because the only facts we have are what actually happened, and 10 starts at the beginning of a career is, at best, an extremely weak indicator.

    I would guess that Rivera could have developed into at least an above-average starting pitcher. This is based on his athleticism, durability, consistency, and focus throughout his career. I believe it's likely that he could have developed additional pitches and threw them well if he needed to, and base that belief on how well he developed those pitches that he does through. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. My point is only that it's totally unfair to simply cast him aside saying he definitely "couldn't cut it". We don't know, and we'll never know.

    All that being said, a couple of posters are right that my original post is just a recitation of facts and wasn't meant to be a suggestion that Rivera is definitely the best pitcher because he's #1 on that list.

25. Andy Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 6:05 am

    Also here is the list to go with JA's find in comment #4 above:

    http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/t975I

    Note that Bob Stanley doesn't quite qualify because he didn't have 600 games in relief. A few others on that list don't meet JA's criteria either.

26. Random Sports Guy Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 6:41 am

    I think it's safe to say that Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer.

27. Voomo Zanzibar Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 11:12 am

    A lot of arguments on this thread trying to poke holes in Mariano Rivera.
    I suppose that is a good warm-up exercize for a 10th grade debate team, but beyond that it is kind of silly.

    Plenty on anti-Yankee sentiment to go around, I understand.
    But the man has had a sub-2 era eight of the last nine years.
    Come on. Next topic.

28. Neil L. Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:57 pm

    No perfect way of quantifying it, but longevity as a closer is impressive because of the "mental strain" (presumably) attached to one's appearances.

    I know the closer has the whole game to mentally prepare for his role, but he is going to appear in far more high-leverage situations than his teammates. Rivera has the mental make-up, as well as the physical, to have prospered in his niche.

29. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Andy-

    If Rivera had the potential to be an above-average to well-above-average starter over the past 15 years, it begs the question as to whether the Yankees used him properly. Obviously, it is hard to argue with the results... a HoF career and 4 WS victories in 6 appearances. But, from a pure "value" standpoint, my guess is that an above-average starter would accrue more WAR over 15 years than the world's greatest closer. As such, is it possible that the Yankees failed to exploit the true potential of Rivera? It'd be interesting to somehow determine Rivera's odds of becoming an all-time elite pitcher (Maddux), a generationially great pitcher (Schilling), a very good starter (Tim Hudson), a good starter (Javier Vaquez), or an average journeyman (Moyer), the expected WAR of each category, and figure out what would have been the better "bet". Obviously, we KNOW what Rivera turned in to as a closer and we'll never know what he would be as a starter, but maybe we could reasonably approximate.

    Note: You are welcome to quibbly with my characterizations of the different "levels". I'm just pulling names out of the air.

30. BSK Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    Bret Saberhagen had a similar WAR and career length to Rivera. For Rivera to have had the same value to the Yankees over the same time period as a starter as he did as a reliever, he would have had to been a Brett Saberhagen type pitcher. Sabes career was pretty up and down, but the man did win two Cy Youngs and had an ERA+ of 126.

    Looks like the Yankees made the right call. The odds of any starting pitcher prospect approaching Saberhagen's career accomplishments have to approach zero.