51 Responses to “On Base 4000+ Times (Including ROE )”

1. Thomas Court Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 8:16 am

   These totals do not include ROE numbers.

   Bonds hits+walks+hbp = 5599

2. Steve Lombardi Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 8:35 am

   Hmm, maybe a problem with the query?

3. stan cook Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 8:40 am

   Regarding the discussion several weeks ago about runs scored as a percentage of times on base per single season. Pete's career percentage is only 36.5 which seems low to me batting first and batting in front of so many good hitters. Not sure what a "normal" percentage would be, but I am looking at the modest power lead off types such as Cobb (40.5), Biggio (40.9), Jeter (41.9). Lack of speed?; playing in the 60s?. I do notice that Boggs is only 34%

4. BSK Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 8:50 am

   I didn't realize Bonds was so high on this list, though it makes perfect sense. Another couple of seasons likely would have vaulted him to number one. It's unfortunate he never got another opportunity to play.

5. Dukeofflatbush Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 9:05 am

   I think a more lasting accomplishment would be if Jeter makes it to 5,000. I know we are talking a way long shot, but still I think more impressive than 3000 hits.
   Guys like him and Biggio were/are really helped by their HBP. Especially in Biggio's case (even though he fell short).
   A great club, is the 5000 TOB & 5000 TB. Rose and Cobb make it despite their lack of power, in fact both have, just counting first and second as a base, have 5,000 TBs.
   Jeter is a way long shot to make 5000/5000, but if he sucks it up, gets a bit more offensive, takes Jorge's DH slot next year, allows the Yankees to sign Reyes... and sorry I was dreaming sensibly again. I apologize.

6. Dukeofflatbush Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 9:09 am

   Sometimes I forget just how darn good Rickey was. Imagine if he played 10-15 games more a season in his prime? Maybe the 20 games missed a season kept around 25 years? But if he and Bonds were ever teammates in their primes, whoa boy! Speed, power, OBP, and tons of mustard on the hotdog!

7. BSK Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 10:02 am

   Was anyone else surprised at how close Jeter and ARod were? I would have assumed that ARod had a sizable leader in OBP. When I saw that Jeter had more times on base, I assumed it had to do with more PAs as a function of hitting leadoff. But their OBPs are almost identical... 383 for Jetes and 386 for ARod.

8. Artie Z Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 10:09 am

   Steve - I don't think it's a problem with the query you did, I just think there is something that is not working properly with the actual PI search when you look for TOB with and without ROE. Andy did a post a few days (weeks?) ago:

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/11380

   highest ratio of runs scored to times on base where he included ROE and some pointed out that the search didn't include ROE. I did his search using wROE and w/oROE and I got the same numbers both times, only when I did the search without ROE I didn't get the actual times on base column (the column was there, the numbers were not).

   I didn't do what TC did (H+BB+HBP) to determine the list didn't include ROE, but I was pretty certain Tim Raines should be on this list and he wasn't (he is at 4076 with 3977 H+BB+HBP and 99 ROE).

9. kds Says:
   June 10th, 2011 at 11:03 am

   This also does not include Fielder's Choice - safe plays. (Runner on third, ground ball, the infielder throws home, everybody safe.) Or sac bunt, everybody safe. Does it include reaching on a strikeout, passed ball or wild pitch? Catcher's Interference? It certainly does not include plays where the batter is safe but another runner is out. In other words, no list of TOB is complete, and all are somewhat artificial.

10. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 11:49 am

    @8/Artie Z, yes I remember recent HOF discussions about Raines, in which his supporters mention that he had over 4000 TOB, and that Gwynn didn't. I also looked for Raines on this list.

    @9/ KDs, yes, no list of TOB is complete, and Reached On Error seems only to go back to 1950, so we are dealing with an even-less-complete TOB total for all pre-WWII players.

    Is the "4000 Times On Base" club just as impressive as the "3000 Hit" club? I say this because several players with 3000 hits (Brock, Clemente, Gwynn) are not on the above list. Anson isn't listed, even though his H+BB+HBP is nearly 4500, so I assume this is because of a pre-1901 cutoff (Lajoie doesn't make it including pre-1900).

    Also, there is only one player on the above list, Rusty Staub, that was both not voted into the HOF, and does not deserve it (I am leaving off-field issues out of that discussion).

11. Dan Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    Just looking at the list, I'd be interested to see a list with Times on Base/game. At a quick glance, only Ted Williams is over 2 TOB/game played. Babe Ruth is close to 2.0/game, as is Wagner. That would seem to be more telling in terms of productivity.

12. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    I don't understand why B-R has a 2nd version of "Times On Base" that includes reached on error. I guess it's just because the ROE stat is available, whereas the number of times on base via fielder's choice, etc., are not (?).

    But I just can't think of any purpose to TOBw/ROE. If I want to know about proficiency at reaching base safely, I want plain TOB (which is hits + walks + HBP). If I want to know something about how many times a guy was on the bases in total, TOBw/ROE doesn't come anywhere near answering that. So what's the point?

    It's not as though reaching on an error were an event that happened often or reflected some characteristic of the batter.

13. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    @3, Stan Cook -- I see two main factors in Rose's rate of runs scored per times on base:

    (1) The scoring context of Rose's career was among the lowest of any player in the live-ball era. His career began in '63, the exact year that the bottom fell out of NL scoring (from 4.5 R/G in '62 to 3.8 in '63), and ended before the offensive explosion of the early '90s.

    (2) Rose had little HR power and only average speed. If you compare him to other players of that same type, during that era, he fares quite well; but the sluggers and the speedsters beat him out.

    I just did a quick search & sort for the scoring rates (per TOB) of the players who had the most TOB from 1961-90. Of the top 50 in total TOB, Rose's scoring rate ranks 24th. The 23 players ahead of Rose consist of 20 power hitters and 3 SB kings (Brock, Campaneris and Willie Davis).

14. Richard Chester Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    It is interesting to note the wide disparity in HBP, from 285 for Biggio and 198 for Frank Robinson to just 11 for Appling and 13 for Mantle and Foxx.

15. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    JA, ROE *is* a characteristic of batters. Derek Jeter has led the league 5 times. I think it should be included in OBP.

16. Doug Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    @12.

    "It's not as though reaching on an error were an event that happened often or reflected some characteristic of the batter."

    I agree with you John, mostly. Certainly, no argument about frequency, at least in the modern day game.

    One area where ROE may be indicative of a quality or characteristic of the batter is the ability to induce, or increase the likelihood, of the defense committing an error.

    So, principally I'm talking about batters with: some speed; who use the whole field; and thus, may hit more grounders in holes that force defenders to make tougher plays and thereby commit more errors.

    But, is it true? One way to measure, perhaps, is whether ROE correlates with ground-ball hitters and stolen bases. Probably, something that could be done with available data.

17. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    @15 -- But Johnny, does that reflect anything besides the fact that Jeter has 9 seasons of 700+ PAs, leading the league 5 times?

18. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    Further to Jeter's ROE -- What I mean is that, while there may be some consistent difference in player ROE rates per at-bat, the range is not big enough to be meaningful.

19. Richard Chester Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    @17, @18

    For the past 2 seasons Jeter has been hitting lots of ground balls, maybe more than anyone else. If it were that way for his entire career he would have provided more opportunities for ROE since most of them come on balls mishandled by infielders.

20. stan cook Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 2:57 pm

    ROE probably correlates inversely with guys who walk, homer, and SO at a high frequency. So, I would expect does GIDP

21. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    Yes. He is right-handed, a groundball hitter, and was pretty fast most of his career.

    PI doesn't allow a sort for actual ROE, but you can sort by ROE runs above average. Over his career, Jeter's ability to ROE has been worth 50 runs more than Carlos Delgado's. Jeter has reached on error once per 63 PA in his career, or once per 38 AB that did not result in a hit. Delgado ROE once per 188 PA, or once per 114 (AB-H).

22. Evan Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    JA @ 12,17-

    I remember reading here awhile back that rate of reaching base on an error is something that is repeatable and is characteristic to the batter.

    The most prominent reason I would see for this is that a batter who is quick down the line and consistently hustles is more apt to reach base on a slightly booted ball or a slightly errant throw since the fielder will have less opportunity to recover from his mistake. I think there are probably other reasons why reaching on an error might be characteristic of batters as well.

    Anytime you deal with errors you end up with strange stats because it is such a subjective statistic. If you saw the highlight of Polanco's throwing error from last night it was a throw that hit several feet in front of Ryan Howard and bounced over his glove/shoulder, allowing the batter to reach. My first thought was that even though that type of play is always ruled an error on the guy who threw it, it is a scoop that most major league first basemen tend to make. Without suggesting the my observation is in anyway based upon enough data to be telling, it is my impression from watching a small sample of Howard's play that he does a very poor job of catching throws that are bounced in front of him. Thus his teammates are charged with more errors and the Phillies give up more infield singles than they would with a more proficient fielder at first.

23. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    @21 -- Are Jeter and Delgado at extreme ends of the ROE spectrum?

24. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    I mean, I think that 1 in 38 (AB-H) is huge. Given a quick glance at Jeter's statistical record, one would assume his non-hit ABs are outs, but 2.6% of them were not outs. He successfully reached base. 50 runs is a lot of value. 5 wins over a career when we talk about guys worth 50 wins as possible HOFers. Jeter may be an extreme case (as Delgado is at the other end), but everyone lies somewhere along the continuum. I think ignoring ROE is like ignoring HBP. Obviously they're not as meaningful as other things, but if you want a full picture of the player's value and/or skillset, why ignore them? Both of them may seem to be the fault of the defense, but there's no question that some batters get more and some get less. It's a skill and it's repeatable.

25. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    JA/23, Jeter and Delgado are the most ROE-runs above and below average since 1996. Part of that is because they played a lot. If you look at ROE/PA or ROE-runs/PA, you may find guys who were a little further out on the spectrum.

26. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    batter who is quick down the line and consistently hustles is more apt to reach base on a slightly booted ball or a slightly errant throw

    Yes, another characteristic of Jeter's. He *always* goes hard.

27. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    f you saw the highlight of Polanco's throwing error from last night it was a throw that hit several feet in front of Ryan Howard and bounced over his glove/shoulder, allowing the batter to reach. My first thought was that even though that type of play is always ruled an error on the guy who threw it, it is a scoop that most major league first basemen tend to make.

    I saw that play and you're right, it's about the easiest bounce a 1Bman could have. Howard should have made the play. Still, it has to be Polanco's error, since he made the bad throw.

    BSK has proposed eliminating the hit/error distinctions. I wouldn't go that far. But insofar as ROE do help teams score, there's no reason to ignore them when determining how many runs a player created.

28. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    Johnny Twisto Says: " ... I think ignoring ROE is like ignoring HBP. Obviously they're not as meaningful as other things, but if you want a full picture of the player's value and/or skillset, why ignore them?... ...but there's no question that some batters get more and some get less. It's a skill and it's repeatable."

    Agreed Johnny T., ROE and HBP are also similar to GIDP, in that it's usually not going to change a player's offensive value much, but if a player is unusually good or bad at it (say Brett Butler vs. Ernie Lombardi, about 20 GIDP per full year), it will make a significant difference in player evaluation.

29. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    There are some assumptions flying around that are not necessarily borne out by data.

    -- Busting it on every ground ball leads to lots of ROE? Tell it to Charlie Hustle, credited with minus-35 WAR Runs ROE for his career.

    -- Speedy lefties get more ROE than lumbering righties? That's news to Harmon Killebrew, credited with 23 WAR Runs ROE for his career.

    I just don't think there are enough total instances of ROE, nor comprehensible trends in terms of the characteristics of the batters who get very many or very few ROE, to be sure that the ROE are not mostly random events.

30. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Self-correction: The only comment above about batter handedness was when JT (correctly) noted that Jeter's being a righty gave him an edge in ROE.

31. John Autin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    (It was I who made the faulty assumption that LHBs would have an edge in ROE, being 2 steps closer to 1st base. In fact, RHBs dominate in ROE, presumably because they pull the ball, and a GB to the SS/3B is more likely to result in an error than one to the 2B/1B.)

32. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    There are 105 players who had at least 502 PA in both 2009 and 2010. I calculated their ROE-runs per PA for each season. The year-to-year correlation is 0.27. I'm assuming that's not nearly as strong as if we searched for something like HR/PA, but it's clearly positive.

    If I could search for actual ROE, I am guessing the correlation would look a little stronger. Converted to runs above average, the numbers are extremely compressed (around +4 to -4).

33. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    And John, I didn't originally put "hustle" as one of Jeter's main characteristics. I don't think it's as important as the other things. But I'm guessing he's gotten a handful of ROE over the years because he does bust it every time. Just as he's probably gotten a few infield hits for the same reason.

34. kingturtle Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    this is actually the answer to a trivia question that occurred to me in 2007..."Who are the top three all-time leaders in Major League Baseball times on base?" I think the answer is fascinating. Rose, Bonds and Cobb...the three guys who got on base more than anyone are three guys who can be considered having the most nefarious relationship with the Major leagues.

35. kingturtle Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    P.S. you didn't need to run a query for it. It is already listed here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TOB_career.shtml . P.P.S. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carl Yastrzemski being so high on the list. I am always confused by Yaz. 191 hits in a season at age 22, and then never a season again with as many. a triple crown and then a .301 batting title. Somewhat dominant hitter in the AL when pitching was so supreme it led to the DH. 5th all-time in times on base?!

36. Artie Z Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    @34 - I would say Hal Chase might top Cobb, Rose, and Bonds in having the most nefarious relationship with the Major Leagues, though Cobb, Rose, and Bonds have had their share of trouble with MLB.

    @35 - that link does NOT include TOB w/ROE (even though it says it does). Raines had 3977 H+BB+HBP and 99 ROE according to his stats.

    @10 - I'm a huge Tim Raines fan - after Keith Hernandez he's my favorite player (on most days). If the Mets would have signed him in 1987 instead of trading for McReynolds he probably would be my favorite player. That being said, neither Raines nor Gwynn (who I also like) have 4000 TOB unless you include their ROE. And then Gwynn slightly passes Raines. Raines is 22 up without the ROE, but Gwynn has 40 more ROE, so Gwynn beats Raines a little. Though it's a lot closer than most people would realize - both go over 4000 TOB if you include their ROE, which is a lot of times to be on base.

    And since I was talking about Vizquel on the other post (him being the player I believe has faced the most different pitchers), he currently sits at 3999 TOB w/ROE. Granted, he's made an awful lot of outs (11th most in history so far), but still 4000 TOB.

37. jason Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    cap anson should be in the top 5 of this list

38. BSK Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    JT-

    My rational for eliminating the H/E distinction goes beyond what has been discussed here (that ROE may be a "skill"). For me, an error is defined as reaching base safely when you otherwise would not have (obviously there are also errors where a guy advances a base where might otherwise have been held, but those are generally rarer and don't speak to what I'm trying to get at); basically, an error is an unearned hit. Fair enough. We shouldn't give a batter credit for an unearned hit. Sure, he got on base, but only because a fielder messed up.

    But what about all the times a guy would have otherwise had a hit save for an amazing defensive play? I'm not just talking about a good or great player, but a player that few if any other fielders would make. These guys get an out, plain and simple. They don't get an "unearned out"; they get an out.

    On the one hand, we consider the outcome and on the other, we consider the anticipated outcome. Doesn't jibe for me.

39. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    @37/ Jason - see my comment on Anson in #10 - he'd probably be about #18 in TOB

    @36/ Artie Z. - thanks for straightening me out on Raines vs. Gwynn, I guess I remembered it somewhat wrong. The main point in the HOF discussion was that even though Gwynn had a lot more hits than Raines and Raines didn't come close to the magic 3000 figure, both of them reached base about the same number of times.

    @35/ kingturtle says: "... I'm surprised no one has mentioned Carl Yastrzemski being so high on the list. I am always confused by Yaz.

    short summary of Yaz' career, by a lifelong Red Sox follower:
    - very highly touted prospect, considered Ted Williams' successor in LF
    - fine line-drive hitter and fielder from 1961-1966, good BA and eye, but considered somewhat of a disappointment, (unfairly) blamed for mediocrity of Red Sox teams (always under .500 and never contending)
    -before the 1967 season, he had a very intense workout program with a noted exercise expert who worked at a country club (Gene ?), very unusual then in MLB
    - early in the 1967 season, coach Bobby Doerr took him aside and gave him some tips on how adjust his swing to hit more HR, leading to his "bat way over the shoulder" stance
    - this helped to lead to his 1967 Triple Crown/MVP year, in the midst of one of the closest pennant races ever, which was decided in the final game, with Yaz incredible down the last few games
    - from 1967-1970 he was one of the best hitters in MLB, but he hurt his shoulder early in 1971 and lost his power - he did not hit a HR for nearly a year's worth of games
    - he adjusted his swing, and was still good enough of a hitter (and kept in shape) that he played regularly till age 44. When he retired he was #1 in Games Played.

    He always had a very good eye and was willing to take a walk, plus he played forever (23 years of 100+ games). He was truly great from only 1963 to 1970, but was usually above-average as a hitter (and usually considerably more than average).

    Hope that helps...

40. Cap Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    Rusty Staub for HOF

41. Richard Chester Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Luke Appling had 11 HBP in 2422 games. Ron Hunt was hit that many times over a 23 game span in 1971.

42. Steve Says:
    June 10th, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    41 Appling was a coward!Take one for the team you bum!! LOL

43. nesnhab Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 7:53 am

    What's Jeter's ROE per ball in play? Is it especially high? And, who is especially high or low?

44. statboy Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    "Yes, another characteristic of Jeter's. He *always* goes hard."

    As someone that watches most Yankees games... no he doesn't. He does hustle more than most, but like pretty much everyone, when he's going to be out by 10 feet at first base he doesn't run at top speed.

45. alec Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    I was impressed to see Frank Thomas on this list. Seeing that his base totals are nearly half of his at-bats..he had over 1,000 less at bats than almost everyone in front of him besides Ted Williams. I wonder what Frank would have done had ne not gotten hurt in 1999. No Steroids either.

46. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    What's Jeter's ROE per ball in play? Is it especially high? And, who is especially high or low?

    Jeter has ROE on 2.2% of his balls in play. This season, MLB average is 1.3%. Delgado for his career was 0.9%.

47. Johnny Twisto Says:
    June 11th, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Statboy, I'll concede that Jeter does slow up a bit once he sees the out is pretty much a sure thing. But it looks to me like he always busts out of the box hard at first, even if it seems to be a routine grounder. Is he always going 100%? Probably not, but I can't remember ever wishing he had given more effort.

48. Yankillaz Says:
    June 13th, 2011 at 11:58 am

    Nice to see Staub in there. So he`s the only steroid or gambling-free player that will never get elected to the Hall. Is interesting. Nevertheless, the fact that he is indeed in such honored group indicates that for his longevity, he is HOF material.

49. Lawrence Azrin Says:
    June 13th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    248/ Yankillaz Says: "Nice to see Staub in there... ...Nevertheless, the fact that he is indeed in such honored group indicates that for his longevity, he is HOF material."

    Yankillaz, I'd argue that he is the "exception that proves the role"; even tho he's lumped in with a bunch of HOFers on the list above, he had more of a Harold Baines-type career (his 3rd most-similar comp). He wasn't much of a fielder, but he managed to stick around forever with a number of teams as a "professional hitter-for-hire", and built up impressive career offensive totals.

50. mosc Says:
    June 13th, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    isn't there a better way to attack this whole "got on base" thing? I mean, you're basically asking "how many times was the guy in the batting box and when the next guy came up, there were the same number of outs". Can't we use play by play data to calculate this more accurately? It seems a stat more about not getting an out than concerned with your performance with the stick (hits+walks+...)

51. mosc Says:
    June 13th, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    That could be just my quest for a more perfect triple crown that revolves around:

    1) How many times they don't make an out instead of batting average (basically what we're talking about here)
    2) How many times they hit with power instead of HR (I like total bases type thing)
    3) How many times they drive in runs instead of RBI (I like RE24)