43 Responses to “Best Age 37+ Seasons By Members Of 2,998 Hit Club”

1. Michael Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:01 am

   The question I have is....who on earth is this referencing??

   /sarcasm

   Seriously...you have to stand in awe of Honus Wagner's numbers...

2. w.k.kortas Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:06 am

   The 2,998 hit club? Is that a special one-time markdown from 3,000?

3. Kahuna Tuna Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:07 am

   Could you open the door a crack for 2,654-hit man Ted Williams and his age-38 season in 1957? Slash stats .388/.526/.731 in 132 games, 38 HR, 87 RBI, 9.9 WAR.

   I always have to remind myself that all that military service left Williams shy of 3,000 hits.

4. Dan Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:12 am

   How 'bout that Cap Anson, huh?

5. Deacon Drake Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:18 am

   Boy... Eddie Murray was on some sort of death march...

6. El Dandy Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:49 am

   So what we're saying is...Jeter is having the worst season ever for a 37 year old in the (soon to be) 3000 hit club? Everyone below him is 38 and up, after all.

7. Mets Maven Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 11:57 am

   How about that Honus Wagner?

8. Doug B Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 12:08 pm

   Murray may have been bad but Pete Rose was worse. He played 7 seasons in the 1980's.

   His combined WAR for the 1980's was -1.4

   Yet somehow in that decade he made 4 all-star teams, won a silver slugger at first base with zero home runs, and finished 10th in the MVP once.

   the myth of batting average ruled welll into the 1980's that's for sure. I mean seriously... who wins a silver slugger at first base with no home runs and 33 RBI?

9. El Dandy Says:
   July 8th, 2011 at 12:10 pm

   Another thing I noticed:

   Combined WAR for each player at 37 and up:
   Cap Anson: 30.2 (9 seasons)
   Honus Wagner: 26.9 (7 seasons)
   Willie Mays: 23.4 (6 seasons)
   Ty Cobb: 18.8 (5 seasons)
   Hank Aaron: 17.2 (6 seasons)
   Eddie Collins: 16.4 (7 seasons)
   Tris Speaker: 14.5 (4 seasons)
   Stan Musial: 12.3 (6 seasons)
   Carl Yastrzemski: 10.4 (7 seasons)
   Rickey Henderson: 9.9 (8 seasons)
   Nap Lajoie: 9.5 (5 seasons)
   Tony Gwynn: 9.5 (5 seasons)
   Paul Molitor: 8.5 (5 seasons)
   Wade Boggs: 8.3 (5 seasons)
   Rafael Palmeiro: 7.1 (4 seasons)
   Craig Biggio: 6.5 (5 seasons)
   Paul Waner: 5.1 (6 seasons)
   Cal Ripken: 4.8 (4 seasons)
   George Brett: 4.6 (4 seasons)
   Roberto Clemente: 4.4 (1 season)
   Pete Rose: 4.2 (9 seasons)
   Al Kaline: 3.3 (3 seasons)
   Dave Winfield: 3.3 (6 seasons)
   Rod Carew: 3.3 (3 seasons)
   Robin Yount: 2.6 (1 season)
   Eddie Murray: 1.1 (5 seasons)
   Derek Jeter: 0.0 (1 season)
   Lou Brock: -1.3 (4 seasons)

10. Doug Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 1:42 pm

    Top 3 WAR for this group, by age.

    37: Wagner, Aaron, Mays
    38: Wagner, Cobb, Anson
    39: Mays, Aaron, Anson
    40: Mays, Cobb, Winfield
    41: Wagner, Musial, Anson
    42: Anson, Wagner, Musial/Yaz (tie)
    43: Anson, Rose, Henderson
    44: Anson, Rose, Henderson

11. Doug B Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 1:50 pm

    I wonder how Clemente would have finished.

    🙁

    Of course everyone is neglecting to mention the guy who put up a 12.4 WAR at age 39. He's not on the list because he "only" has 2,935 hits to go with his 2,558 walks. That just ain't natural!

12. Doug Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    @9.

    As a point of reference, I checked out Julio Franco, just because of his longevity.

    He tallied 6.1 WAR in 9 seasons (I'm excluding his 1-game season in 1999) aged 37 or older, with positive WAR every year but one. Numbers were unspectacular (7 times between 0.1 and 0.8 WAR), but I'm impressed that a 48 year-old could still be playing above replacement level, albeit in a very limited role (106 PA).

13. Doug B Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    my 40+ lineup probably looks something like this:

    1 - Lopes 2B (R) - (you try finding a second baseman!)
    2 - Cobb CF (L)
    3 - Bonds LF/RF (L)
    4 - Wagner SS/utility (R)
    5 - Musial LF/1B (L)
    6 - Fisk C (R)
    7 - Evans 3B/1B (L)
    8 - Appling SS/3B (R)
    9 - either Mays or Aaron RF (R) - (I could not decide)

    It's amazing that SS was the one infield position with so many to pick from. I had to cut Anson as Cobb already claimed the position as top racist and I needed a centerfielder.

    DH of course would rotate. You don't expect these guys to play every day in the field do you?

14. John Q Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    @11 Doug,

    I've often wondered what would have happened to the Pirates from 1973-1975 had Clemente lived. I think the Pirates would have won the mediocre NL east in 1973 then who knows what would have happened in the NLCS.

    It's interesting to think how the Pirates would have handled the glut of good outfielders they had at that time, Stargell, Oliver, Parker, Zisk and Clemente. Maybe the Pirates would have traded Oliver and gotten a real Center Fielder, who knows.

15. BillyPhilly Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    So Aaron has his highest home run season at age 37 and no talk of the juice?

16. Doug B Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    going from 45 homers to 47 is a little different than going from 49 to 73.

17. Thomas Court Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Ichiro has 3620 career hits if you count his totals from Nippon pro ball in Japan. He is 8 months older than Jeter (even though they are both listed by BR as 37).

    I like that BR has recently updated the minor league stats. When are they going to port in the stats from Japanese leagues? Ichiro's stats from his Nippon playing days have been available on ESPN for years. I like ESPN - but I want Baseball Reference to be my one stop shopping place for baseball stats.

18. John Q Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    @8 Doug,

    Pete Rose was done as a productive everyday player in the major leagues by 1980 but somehow he was able to get 3685 plate appearances from 1980-1986 mostly at first base! To put it in perspective Rose was basically a full-time 1B and he hit .274 with 6HR and 301 RBI's during this time period!! And then Rose at 40 was at best a mediocre fielder.

    It's probably one of the rare times in MLB history that a team made it to the WS twice in 4 years with essentially no production from their 1b.

    The Phillies won in '80, '81, '83 because they had Carlton who was the best pitcher in baseball from 1980-1983 and Mike Schmidt who was the best position player in baseball from 1980-1983 and then throw in John Denny's fluke season in '83 and a decent supporting cast.

    Playing Rose at 1b cost the Phillies a division in '82 and he probably cost the Reds a division in '85.

19. John Q Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    @8 Doug,

    Yeah it is mind-boggling they gave Rose the SS at first with 0 HR and 33 RBI. I know it was the strike year, but that's just a terrible job. Hernandez should have won it that year.

    For the longest time I thought they just gave the Silver Slugger to the player who had the highest batting average at his position. I didn't learn until much later that it was a subjective award. I'm not sure but for the first few years, I think they just voted for the guy with the highest average.

20. Nash Bruce Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    @18: regarding the '85 Reds season: Well, you have to put some of the blame on the Reds manager- at that point, who in their right mind, would keep running Rose out there to play everyday, ??

21. Doug Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 5:44 pm

    @13.

    Nice work on 40+ team, Doug.

    You're right about the second baseman - slim pickings. But, I can't agree with Davey Lopes, if only because he almost never played 2nd base after age 40. To be precise, he played at 2nd in one game (out of 242) after age 40.

    Some other possibilities:
    - Eddie Collins was a 2.1 WAR after age 40, but it was all in his age 40 season, and he only played 58 games at 2nd after age 40
    - Biggio had two full seasons at 2nd base, one okay (1.4), one not (-1.5, and mostly because of defense)
    - Lajoie also had two more-or-less full seasons at 2nd. oWAR was 1.8, but dWAR was -1.5 (negative both years)

    But, maybe our man should be Rabbit Maranville. Like Biggio and Lajoie, he had 2 full seasons (and a bit of a 3rd season) at 2nd. His WAR is bad (-2.2). But, he placed in the MVP voting in both his age 40 and age 41 seasons, while playing for a middle of the pack club. So, maybe his contemporaries were seeing something that we're missing in the numbers.

22. TapDancingTeddy Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    @9 and 10: Thank you. That's good stuff to look at.

23. Will Short Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    If you aren't going to include the batting averages, don't bother.

24. -mark Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    For what it is worth, Bill James has the following team of "oldies" (35+)

    C - Carlton Fisk
    1B - Cap Anson
    2B - Nap Lajoie
    3B - Pete Rose
    SS - Honus Wagner
    OF - Ted Williams
    OF - Willie Mays
    OF - Babe Ruth
    SP - Cy Young
    SP - Phil Niekro
    SP - Jack Quinn
    SP - Warren Spahn
    RP - Hoyt Wilhelm

    Based on his Win-Shares system.

25. Timmy P Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    @20 For your information Nash, although I hail from Wahoo Nebraska, and attended Boys Town in Nebraska in junior high and some high school, I have lived and worked in Asia and South America for extended periods. Except for the east coast I have also lived and worked all over the USA for extended periods of time. I am not a beer drinker, I have made it clear in the past my fondness for Johnny Walker black label, although I try not to post after I've had 3. Makes me sad that calling someone all-American would spark a negative reaction.

26. Neil L. Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    Yawn, ho-hum. May DJ forever be fated to obscurity!

    So will someone from the NY market please explain to me why Derek Jeter's ego will not allow him to bat ninth in the lineup. He didn't even want to go on the DL for cryin' out loud. Is it all about Derek or about the Yamkees winning games?

27. Charlie C Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 9:19 pm

    @20 @18 - who would play instead of Rose? Pete Rose led the '85 Reds in OBP (.395) - .264 BA and 86 BB in 500 PA - his stats are not typical for a firstbaseman, but it seems to me that they needed him in the line-up -

28. Ken Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 9:33 pm

    @18: Rose was bad by '85, but he certainly didn't cost the Reds the division. They finished 5.5 games out, with Rose putting up 0.8 WAR. The team had no young 1B to speak of, and certainly nobody that was going to put up a 7 WAR season (in fact, no 1B did that season).

    Rose's worth was of course much more about the ticket sales than value on the field in '85. The Reds attendance rose about 50% from the prior year based on Rose chasing the hit record.

29. DaveKingman Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    I always loved that 1971 Hank Aaron season. He received zero 1st place MVP votes.

    The man had a hammer.

30. Timmy P Says:
    July 8th, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    Berkman hit another homer! If the Cardinals win their division, Berkman = MVP!

31. John Q Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 1:09 am

    @28 Ken,

    Well the Reds and Rose decided during the winter of '84-85 That Rose was going to be the full-time 1B and they were going to support Rose in his chase for the Hits record. Essentially by making this decision they were putting winning second to chasing a record and as a result they never bothered to look for a full-time 1B during the off-season.

    You can chase a record & money if you're a bad ball club but the Reds were a very good team in 1985.

    They didn't even have to look for a full time 1b, they could have switched Nick Esasky to 1B and brought up Eric Davis to play LF. Paul O'neil was also on the verge of coming up but was blocked in the log jam in the outfield. Maybe they could have switched Dave Parker to 1b.

    The Reds only played 161 games in 1985 so they realistically could have been 5 games out. You didn't need a 7 WAR 1B to win, they could have had a 3-4 WAR 1B which would have cut the lead to 1-2 games and which would have made things interesting.

    As far as Rose goes, yes he did have a .395 on base percentage but he had no power. He had a .319 slugging percentage which was ranked 23/23 among 1b with at least 450 plate appearances. His .264 batting average ranked 22/23 1b with at least 450 plate appearances. Then on top of it, his defense wasn't very good because he was 44 years old.

32. John Autin Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 1:38 am

    @17, Thomas Court -- I, too, would love to see the Japanese stats more readily available on B-R. But they're still minor leagues.

    Jeter would have 3,548 hits if we counted his hits from the minors.

33. John Autin Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 1:53 am

    John Q -- I know that Pete Rose was, taking his Phillies years as a whole, a subpar performer on the field.

    Yet while I can't possibly quantify Rose's "intangibles" against those of anyone else, I still think he was a player who brought a lot to a team beyond his hits, runs and outs.

    Have you read Joe Posnanski's book about the '75 Reds, "The Machine"? His description of Rose's mid-season shift from OF to 3B -- a position where he'd only ever played 16 games, and that 9 years before -- helped me appreciate what a team player Rose was. And isn't that something those Phillies needed?

34. Thomas Court Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 5:50 am

    @32

    I think the Japanese leagues are a little better than minor leagues over here. Mind you, the only evidence I have to support this statement is that there have been only two World Baseball Classic tournaments - and Japan has won them both. I think it is safe to assume that during Ichiro's playing days in Japan that he was playing with and against many players who were major league caliber.

    Also consider that Ichiro actually averages more hits per game in the Majors than he did in Japan. He only had one season of 200 hits in Japan. Ichiro’s extra base hits, average, BB/SO, SB/CS and OPS numbers all took the expected reduction that one would have expected for a player moving from Nippon to the Majors. They did not fall off the table completely, but there are decreases that are visible to the naked eye without breaking out the calculator. But you know the one stat that didn’t decrease? His hits. His hits/game average has actually increased since arriving in the Majors:

    Should we discount his hit total somehow? The numbers argue more in favor of augmenting them. His 1,278 hits while playing in Japan have already been discounted by the fact that he played in a maximum of 135 games a season (which he only did once). I say we can split the difference and just leave the numbers where they are.

35. MLS Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 6:27 am

    @23..Totally agree..BA=what the player actually did VS OBP=what the player could've done. OBP is bad science, always has been, will always be. Especially if you apply it to middle of the order guys. I consider OBP for middle of the order guys is like managers hitting lefties against righties..it's part of the game..playing the odds! Example: Dawson (.323 OBP) scored a run 39% every time he reached base BUT if you discount his HRS..he scored 31% of the time. Whereas, McGwire(.394 OBP) scored a run 39% of the time as well BUT...when you discount his HRS..he scored only 24 % of the time. In other words..managers/pitchers knew what they were doing when they walked that slug McGwire...they played the odds. I can not believe comman sense doesn't prevail on this subject!

36. MLS Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 6:55 am

    One more comment about OBP. If this game is about scoring (in which I believe it its) and if one looks at OBP as the driving force of scoring runs (which I think it SHOULD be)...then tell me this...why on earth isn't Kenny Lofton in the HOF?? The man scored a run 45% of the time he reached base and the only man I have come with better than him is DiMaggio at 46 %. IF you insist on OBP is pertinant...please apply it properly!!!

37. BSK Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 8:34 am

    MLS-

    The percentage of times scored is based on numerous factors completely out of the players control. The player's power, speed, and baserunning contribute, but he is still dependent upon his teammates to drive him in. Lofton played on high scoring teams with great offenses, which is why he scored so frequently. He was a great player, and if you look through the archives you will see that he has received quite a bit of HOF support here (more than he's getting amongst the general public), partly based on his great OBP skills. But to penalize a guy for not scoring frequently is unfair; the stat is too context dependent.

    OBP is not about what could happen; just like BA, it is about what did happen. During what percentage of the player's PA did he succeed in not making an out? It is a direct recording of what has happened on the field.

38. BSK Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 8:42 am

    JA-

    Scouts I've read said that the Japanese leagues probably split the difference between the highest level of the Minors (debatable as to whether this is AAA or AA based on how talent is distributed) and the Majors. It's not exactly fair to dismiss it as Minor leagues, but also hard to consider it Major league quality. Personally, I think the fact that it was the Japanese Major Leagues matter. In the Minors, players have different objectives. Some are working on developing pitches or rehabbing or doing things other than trying to do their best on the field. In the Majors, be it America or Japan, the competition is at its best. I think this counts for something.

    In the end, I think that Ichiro will reach the HOF because of what he's done here, both on and off the field; the voters will certainly take into account his impact (just as voters did in choosing him for the MVP and MLB did when choosing his rookie season as the best "moment", as stupid as that was). My feeling is that he will deserve it even without these things.

39. MLS Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 11:11 am

    With all due respect BSK...what you and MANY others don't factor into the equation is what you actually eluded to "it's a direct recording of what happened on the ball field". Don't you think mgrs/pitchers don't KNOW what type of hitters that are behind other hitters? Ponder that question for a moment. Like a light going off...you too will come to your senses. OBP is the direct correlation of HOW the game is played...it's all about the odds...the situations...the tempo...what type of team an individual is playing on...ect..ect. Like I said...BA is what the player actually did hitting the ball...OBP is more times than not..the "direction" the opposing teams will allow a player to get on. It's NOT entirely in the hands of the player....and SHOULD be viewed that way!!

40. MLS Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 11:39 am

    I have debated this OBP issue many times. Phrases like "don't let this guy beat you" and "don't give this guy anything good to hit" among others have LONG been standard in baseball.To ignore basic fundamentals of the game by saying a player didn't make an out is ridiculus...IF he didn't SCORE while reaching base...it's a win for the opposing team...and correct me if I'm wrong..that's WHAT this game is all about....SCORING!!! There's a REASON why McGwire had a high OBP...because he was more dangerous at the plate than he was on the basepaths...and the mgrs/pitchers knew this. Give them credit. If getting on base was the PRIMARY focus in a game...explain the Williams/Ortiz shifts..a bunt down the 3rd base line gets them on base almost every time!!! That's BETTER than making an out isn't it????

41. BSK Says:
    July 9th, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    MLS-

    I understand your point, but that is a bit simplistic. Just because strategy has been utilized doesn't mean it is ideal. It is rare that an intentional walk or semi-intentional walk is actually the ideal strategy. Yet, the practice continues. I do realize that how a batter is pitched to impacts his OBP; some guys will see sudden jumps in OBP relative to BA as a function of increased power with no discernible difference in their batting eye. Yet, the fact remains: the batter came to the plate and reached safely. We could make the same argument against BA. Yes, he hit the ball for a hit, but it also was a confluence of his approach, his swing, the pitcher's approach, the positioning and competency of the fielders, etc, etc, etc.

    Multiple studies have been completed that demonstrated the importance of OBP over pretty much any other basic stat. It's been shown here that going 0 for 1 with 3 walks is better than going 1 for 4 with a HR. There is objective data stating this. The argument that McGwire was more dangerous in the box than on the bases is a false dilemma. Only when a guy has a SLUG beyond 1.000 (meaning he averages a base per AB) does it become better to walk him than allow him to hit away. And this is so rarely achieved as to make the practice pretty foolish.

42. John Autin Says:
    July 10th, 2011 at 1:03 am

    @34, Thomas -- Even if I were to agree that the top Japanese league is better than the highest U.S. minor league (I don't, but never mind), that's still nothing like an argument for considering any of Ichiro's hits in Japan as being "major-league hits," nor for considering his play in Japan as part of his HOF credentials.

    By the way, I do think that he'll make the HOF based only on his MLB achievements.

    But while I don't dispute that Ichiro faced "many players who were major league caliber" in Japan, there are many other players who played several years in minor leagues that were at least as close to MLB-caliber as the leagues Ichiro played in.

    I speak in particular of the Pacific Coast League in the 1920s and early '30s. If we give HOF credit for Ichiro's Japanese career, then what about someone like Lefty O'Doul, who had 4 huge years in the PCL (1924-27, batted .375 or higher 3 times, including a 309-hit season), then returned to the majors and hit almost exactly the same for 4 years?

    What about Buzz Arlett? In his only year in the majors, Arlett was a fine hitter; his 138 OPS+ was better than Ichiro's best. But Arlett amassed over 2,700 hits and 400+ HRs in the high minors, mostly in the PCL.

    What about Ox Eckhardt, who had a .369 BA at the highest levels of the minors and racked up 2,773 hits, but barely got a cup of coffee in the majors?

    And what about Hector Espino, considered the greatest player in the history of the Mexican League? Liga Mexicana has sent way more stars to the majors than the Japanese leagues.

43. MLS Says:
    July 10th, 2011 at 7:13 am

    I believe we both agree on many points about OBP, but you have to admit there are many "variables" concerning this stat. It's my thought that OBP is a stat that IF applied should be weighted as to where the batter is in the line-up. BA has no such "variables"..the stat should be viewed as how consistant a player "hits" ML pitchers..nothing more..nothing less. OBP has always left me with more questions than answers. I know it's "valuable" that a player doesn't make an out, but even that is a false assumption (sac fly and bunts). Also, I know standing on 1st base is NOT in scoring position and there's those little pesky Williams/Ortiz shifts that defys OBP logic (if there's logic behind it).Too many variables in which to lay my hat on tis all BSK.