Derek Jeter–greatest Yankee ever?
Posted by Andy on August 25, 2009
Derek Jeter. What more can be said about this guy? I think he might be both the most overrated and underrated player of all time. The guy has benefited from playing in many post-seasons and has also made a handful of spectacular defensive plays that left the average fan thinking he was a much defender than he actually was.
But just when you start thinking the guy is overrated, you see a list like this. All-time hits by a Yankee, 1901-present:
Cnt Player **H** From To Ages G PA AB R 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Positions +----+-----------------+--------+----+----+-----+----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+----+---+-----+-----+-----+-----+---------+ 1 Lou Gehrig 2721 1923 1939 20-36 2164 9660 8001 1888 534 163 493 1995 1508 0 790 45 106 0 2 102 101 .340 .447 .632 1.079 *3/976 2 Derek Jeter 2701 1995 2009 21-35 2103 9647 8525 1553 433 58 222 1059 861 32 1441 142 75 44 208 296 79 .317 .387 .459 .846 *6/D 3 Babe Ruth 2518 1920 1934 25-39 2084 9197 7216 1959 424 106 659 1975 1852 0 1122 35 94 0 0 110 117 .349 .484 .711 1.195 *97/831 4 Mickey Mantle 2415 1951 1968 19-36 2401 9909 8102 1677 344 72 536 1509 1733 126 1710 13 14 47 113 153 38 .298 .421 .557 .978 *8397/645 5 Bernie Williams 2336 1991 2006 22-37 2076 9053 7869 1366 449 55 287 1257 1069 97 1212 39 12 64 223 147 87 .297 .381 .477 .858 *8D/97 6 Joe DiMaggio 2214 1936 1951 21-36 1736 7671 6821 1390 389 131 361 1537 790 0 369 46 14 0 130 30 9 .325 .398 .579 .977 *8/793 7 Don Mattingly 2153 1982 1995 21-34 1785 7721 7003 1007 442 20 222 1099 588 136 444 21 13 96 191 14 9 .307 .358 .471 .829 *3/D97584 8 Yogi Berra 2148 1946 1963 21-38 2116 8355 7546 1174 321 49 358 1430 704 49 411 52 9 44 146 30 26 .285 .348 .483 .831 *279/35 9 Bill Dickey 1969 1928 1946 21-39 1789 7060 6300 930 343 72 202 1209 678 0 289 31 51 0 49 37 29 .313 .382 .486 .868 *2 10 Earle Combs 1866 1924 1935 25-36 1455 6507 5746 1186 309 154 58 632 670 0 278 17 74 0 0 96 71 .325 .397 .462 .859 *87/9
That's right...barring an injury or major slump, by the end of the season, Jeter is going to have the most career hits by a Yankee. Just think about that for a second. More than Gehrig, more than Mantle, more than DiMaggio....and he's had a long career but he's not going to get this record just through longevity. He has a career batting average of .317 and in this, his 14th full major league season, he's batting .332 with a 127 OPS+. The lowest batting average he's ever had in a full season in .291 and he's never had an OPS+ that was average (or below average.)
His career ranks among Yankees: 5th in batting average, 4th in runs scored, 5th in total bases, 10th in RBI, and 2nd in stolen bases.
August 25th, 2009 at 9:48 am
"Greatest Yankee Ever" is a great way to get people to click the link. 🙂
He became the Yankee all-time AB leader sometime in April or May of this year. He's actually 10th all-time on the Yankee HR list, tied with Mattingly.
"Longevity" is starting to become an apt term for him. At just 35, his AB and PA totals have cracked the all-time top 100.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Have to agree, title drew me in too.
Very interesting, supports your title, did not know he was reaching such a milestone.
Looking at the numbers, it is interesting to note that Jeter has struck out 300 times more than Babe Ruth, who popularized the idea that striking out is OK when he has the HR power he can deliver when he does connect.
Also, Babe had 1000 more walks. Had he been able to hit at his .349 rate, he would have 2,867 hits as a Yankee and it would be another season before Jeter could take the lead.
And, of course, the most glaring point, which I had seen mentioned before, is the amazing fact that despite being the most storied franchise with its long history, it does not have any hitter with 3,000 hits either with the team or overall with a career identified with the Yankees.
August 25th, 2009 at 10:51 am
I wonder where Jeter would be if the stats were based on a per game basis, instead of totals. For example, hits per game, RBI per game, etc. Then where would he stand as a Yankee?
August 25th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Firstly, this says something about the current era: I misread comments #2 above which actually said "most storied franchise". I thought it said "most steroided franchise." Seriously.
Secondly, I don't think Jeter is the greatest Yankee ever. Just compare his numbers to Gehrig above. There are only two ways in which Jeter beats out Gehrig: stolen bases and playing a more important defensive position. Gehrig is way beyond Jeter in every other aspect.
August 25th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Where does Jeter rank in the list of
"all time outs made by a Yankee?" He'll
be far above the hitters in the list shown
in this post, due to his relatively low
(given the august company) OBP.
August 25th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
You can see the Yankees' outs leaders on this page:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/leaders_bat.shtml
It's the very last item on the page. Jeter is already #1.
August 25th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
What about that fat guy that used to play RF? Back in the '20s. Heard he was "pretty good" - you know, near .690 SLG percentage, about 66 points higher than that Ted-something guy from Boston.
August 25th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I will admit to being a Jeter-basher in the past; I've felt for a long time that he was one of the most (if not THE most) overrated players of this generation - and I still feel that way.
That said, there is something to be said for longevity and consistency, and Jeter has demonstrated those characteristics as well. While he is no where close to being the greatest Yankee ever, I looked carefully at his stats after a previous post about his being the greatest Yankee shortstop ever, and found it hard to argue against that. He really is much more accomplished with the bat than I was willing to give him credit for. Make no mistake, he’s no Ruth, Gehrig, or Mantle, but he is better than all but the most elite players who have donned the pinstripes.
He still wouldn’t make my list of top 10 Yankees ever, nor would he make my list of top 10 shortstops ever (though he might now make my top 20 in either category - barely).
… and I’d still put A-Rod at short and move Jeter to third!
August 25th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Tom, although I agree from a pure stats perspective that A-rod should be at short and Jeter should have been moved to 3rd when they acquired A-rod, there's something to be said for issues beyond stats. Jeter is the core of the Yankees team, just the third captain since Gehrig, and a good argument can be made for allowing him to man the only position he'd ever known to that point. He wouldn't have passed Aparicio for most hits by a SS had the Yankees moved him to 3B. I doubt that the defensive positions have much impact on the offensive production by either Jeter or A-rod, and I doubt the defense would be much different. Both guys have been decent at their positions--probably A-rod has better range at this point and so it would make sense to have him at SS and Jeter at 3B, but the potential difference isn't big enough to me to outweigh the intangibles.
Besides which, to move Jeter would have made this A-rod team, and everyone involved was smart enough to know that it HAD to remain Jeter's team.
August 25th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Interesting list and discussion. Here is the very short list of players who have 3000 hits with one franchise (just missing the list: Wagner, Anson and Sam Rice):
1. Cobb, Tigers, 3900
2. Musial, Cards, 3630
3. Aaron, Braves, 3600
4. Yastrzemski, Red Sox, 3419
5. Rose, Reds, 3358
6T. Mays, Giants, and Ripken, O's, 3187
8. Brett, Royals, 3154
9. Yount, Brewers, 3142
10. Gwynn, Padres, 3141
11. Biggio, Astros, 3060
12. Kaline, Tigers, 3007
13. Clemente, Pirates 3000
Jeter should be #14 on this list assuming he stays healthy and with the Yankees through 2011.
BTW a while back I checked to see who had 300 wins with one team, it was a very short list, as I recall only Spahn, Nichols, Big Train and Christy Mathewson. I may be missing someone but I think it was just the four.
August 25th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I made a very simple arithmetic-based system to determine offensive players of the year, and the same system can be applied to this situation. Look at the NY Yankees Career Leaders in BA, Rs, TBs, RBIs, BBs, and SBs. Give 10 Points for 1st place, 9 for 2nd place, etc. etc. Ruth is 1st in BA, 1st in Rs, 1st in TBs, 2nd in RBIs and 1st in BBs. That's 10+10+10+9+10=49. With that simple system, the ten best all-time Yankees offensively are: 1. Ruth (49), 2. Gehrig (45), 3. Mantle (34), 4. Jeter (33), 5. DiMaggio (28), 6. B. Williams (22), 7. Randolph (16), 8. Berra (13), 9. R. White (11), 10. Dickey (10), 10. R. Henderson (10). This is in no way a fool-proof way, but interesting nonetheless (at least to me).
Another thing to look at is rings. Berra had 10!, DiMaggio 9, Mantle 7, Gehrig 6, and Ruth 4. Jeter has 4, too.
August 25th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
jksesq1 you got the 300 win guys. This also interested me, as well. This link has the 2 lists that you provided and also the 500+ home run guys. It it updated through last September 7th.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/774
August 25th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Jeter both the most overrated and the most underrated player of all time? I think Pete Rose may have that distinction. Common opinions on him range from best hitter of all time to a guy who wouldn't belong in the Hall of Fame even if it weren't for the gambling thing. Nolan Ryan is another one who draws extreme opinions.
August 25th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Andy: Actually, I think if they had done it correctly, it could have actually enhanced Jeter’s reputation as the team leader. If Jeter had volunteered to move to third base so that the Yankees could acquire A-Rod (or at least if the team and media had couched it that way), it would have made Jeter look like the magnanimous one, the guy who would do anything to make his team better. Not only that, but the gesture of Jeter welcoming A-Rod by giving him his position might also have given A-Rod a better chance of getting a more favorable opinion among the Yankee fan base – at least initially.
I do agree that it probably would not be beneficial to have them exchange at this point; what’s done is done.
Everyone: As to Jeter’s getting 3000 hits with one team, hits alone do not a great player make. You’ll notice that Jeter does not make the top 10 Yankees lists in On-Base Percent, Slugging, or OPS. Though he ranks fourth in doubles, he will have more PA than any of the three ahead of him by week’s end (and Gehrig has 100 more 2B). Similarly, by week’s end he’ll have more PA than any of the ten guys tied or ahead of him on the Yankee HR leader list (and Mantle – the only one with more PA – has 300+ more HR in < 300 more PA). The same goes with Bases on Balls; five of the six guys ahead off him on the list have done it in fewer PA (again, Mantle is the exception, but has 850+ more BB in < 300 more PA).
A-Rod, on the other hand, misses the Yankee top 10 in BA only by .006, but ranks 6th on OBP, 4th in SLG, 5th in OPS, and despite nearly 6000 fewer PA as a Yankee, is already ahead of Jeter in HR and only 29 behind him in Adjusted Batting Runs.
The bottom line is that Jeter’s been a Yankee for a long time in an era with more games on the schedule (than the Ruth / Gehrig teams, anyway). Give him credit for longevity and consistency, but don’t try to sell me the idea that that makes him the greatest Yankee ever.
August 25th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Tomepp, Yankee fans definitely welcomed A-Rod initially. The day after the team traded for him, they sold some ridiculous number of tickets. But he never was able to earn his stripes among most fans because of a (relatively) disappointing first season compounded by poor clutch performance, followed by the 2004 ALCS, followed by his terrible postseasons since then. I don't think being given SS would have made a difference in how he is perceived.
You also seem to be going out of your way to knock Jeter. He's a SHORTSTOP, on the greatest franchise in history -- his not being in the top 10 of some offensive categories doesn't mean he's not had a great career. Obviously he's not the greatest Yankee ever, but no one's really arguing that; Andy admitted he doesn't believe that.
Who do you think are the ~20 SS in MLB history who are better than him?
August 26th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
10th in RBI's is very impressive for a leadoff hitter who's still got a few years left, on a list that includes the likes of Ruth, Mantle, Gehrig, etc
August 26th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
True, but recall that Jeter has spent way more time batting 2nd than leadoff in his career (5788 PAs batting 2nd, 2668 PAs batting first, and roughly 1000 PAs batting in other spots in the lineup.)
See here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=jeterde01&year=Career&t=b#lineu
August 26th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Also when Jeter batted second, keep in mind the caliber of playing hitting ahead of him: Damon, Lofton, Soriano, Knoblauch, Raines....pretty good set of guys to hit behind.
August 26th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Here is my list of the 20 SS's with greater careers than Jeter's: Wagner, Ripken, Rodriguez... I guess Ernie Banks if you want to call him a shortstop.... Hmm I think I'm done.
Not that I particularly like Jeter or the Yankees (I don't) but it is an impressive body of work.