30 Responses to “Allowing 16+ Runs In A Game 9 Innings Or Less 4X In A Season”

1. Brian Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 10:57 am

   Obviously intriguing are the games in which teams gave up 16 or more runs and won. I checked the Phillies-Cubs game from 1922 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN192208250.shtml), and noticed that the Cubs starting pitcher got the win, despite only pitching four innings.

   I recall a post on this blog not too long ago about the scorer's option of giving the win to whichever reliever seems most "deserving", should the starter not complete five innings.

   How, in this game, did Cubs pitcher Tony Kaufmann qualify for a win with only four innings pitched?

2. Larry R. Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 10:58 am

   The '30 Phils had a team ERA of 6.71 in perhaps the most potent single season in history. That's like the current version giving up 6 runs a game. Not that surprising, really.

3. Dave V. Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:06 am

   @1 Brian - I'm curious about why Tony Kaufmann got the win as well. Good catch. Kaufmann left with a 25-6 lead, so maybe since the bullpen gave up 17 runs after he left, they just figured they'd throw out the 5-inning rule for that particular game??

   Also, I see that one of the Cubs pitchers was Uel Eubanks and he got beat up pretty bad. I clicked on his profile just because I thought he had an interesting name (and that's his real name!). In fact, it was the last game he ever pitched in the bigs (after pitching one game prior to that):

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=eubanue01&t=p&year=

4. John Autin Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:13 am

   @1 / @3 -- I'm not sure when the 5-IP requirement for a SP win was officially codified, but it was definitely not applied uniformly until the 1950s.

   There have been 195 games since 1919 in which a SP got the win despite lasting less than 5 innings. All but 8 of them came before 1950. (Some of these may be shortened games, but most are regulation.)
   http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/share.cgi?id=nOwNC

5. Steve Lombardi Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:13 am

   FWIW, googling on Kaufmann, I saw one reference that said: Under the scoring rules of the day, the starting pitcher didn't have to go 5 innings to qualify for a win.

6. Dave Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:28 am

   Boston at St. Louis, 1950, 36 runs, 34 hits, 9 pitchers....time? 2:50. Can you imagine how much fun baseball had to have been to watch back in those days? Quick, quick, quick.

7. Dave V. Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:39 am

   @4 - I was checking out those 195 games you mentioned. Some fun things of note:

   --Babe Ruth has 2 of those wins (including this one where he went 3 innings; it's unimaginable that he would get a win for this one today): http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS191906050.shtml

   --Lefty Grove and Lefty Gomez both have 2 each as well.

   --Carl Hubbell, Dazzy Vance and Early Wynn all have 1 such game. Wynn has 300 wins exactly, so without this win, he wouldn't be in the 300-win club (assuming he didn't hang on to try and get there without this 1 win that is).

   --Herb Pennock has 5! Including this gem: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET192505180.shtml

8. DavidRF Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:55 am

   @6
   Typo there. I think you meant Philly

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHA/PHA195006290.shtml

   Also 21 walks in that game. Post-war walk boom at its height. As you note, though, still a remarkably fast game.

   Attendance was only 2808.

9. Joe C Says:
   July 15th, 2011 at 12:17 pm

   @6, 8

   There was the game David RF mentioned - but there was also a famous Boston/St. Louis game in 1950, won by the Red Sox 29-4. 33 runs, 36 hits, 18 walks....all in 2:42.

10. ctorg Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Top four slots to Philadelphia teams - what is it about Philadelphia (other than that all four teams were really awful and playing during offense-heavy times)?

11. Mets Maven Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    The line score for the 1922 Phillies-Cubs game indicates no errors made. However, the box score lists a total of nine errors. There's a software glitch somewhere. FYI.

12. tbone82 Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    @1: I believe I remember reading that the rule was at least 5 innings except in case of "illness, injury, or a commanding lead." While it turned out to be more of a nail-biter, I would certainly consider 25-6 to be a commanding lead.

13. kds Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    @10, The Baker Bowl was like Coors Field squared.
    @7, Lefty Grove finished with exactly 300 wins also.

    I had read that by today's standards Dizzy Dean would not have been credited with 30 wins in 1934. (The last time in the NL.) He does not appear on the list linked in @4 above. I think his "extra" wins were all in relief.

14. allan Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    @6

    And if you look back at the sports media then, there was concern about how long games were and what could be done to speed them up. In the Deadball Era, AL President Ban Johnson expressed worry about games lasting more than 2 hours. It has been an issue for nearly 100 years, at least.

15. Mets Maven Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    @13. In 1934, Dizzy Dean won four games in relief. On June 23, he entered the game in the top of the 7th, after the Cards had scored five runs in the bottom of the 6th to take a 5-4 lead, which is how the game ended.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN193406230.shtml. By current rules, he would have earned a save rather than a win that day, finishing the season with 29 wins.

16. Doug Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

    @6.

    Dave mentioned the 1950 Boston/St. Louis game had 34 hits, 9 pitchers and was completed in 2:50.

    Yesterday's Toronto/New York game had 34 hits, 9 pitchers and was completed in 2:59.

    And, yes, yesterday's game did seem quick, and very pleasant to watch.

17. Doug Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

    Love Coors Field.

    Rockies made this list 3 times in their first 4 years, and 5 times in their first 10 years.

    I was curious about 1994, the one year in their first four they didn't make this list. They actually had zero such games in 1994, although they did allow 10+ runs 15 times in only 117 games that year.

18. Evil Squirrel Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 2:00 pm

    It is still possible these days for a starting pitcher to pick up a win without going 5 innings, so long as they pitch at least 4 and the game gets called after just 5 innings....

    I submit this game, which I attended. Luebbers would not have qualified for the win had the game not been rain-shortened.....

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN199910030.shtml

19. LJF Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    RE: The 1950 Boston/Browns game. That was the second straight day the Browns gave up 20 to the Red Sox (20-4, 29-4). Over those two games, the Red Sox had a .520/.595/1.021 slash line as a team. 26 EBH's (13 doubles, 1 triple and 12 HR's), 18 BB's. The game scores for the two SP's used by the Browns were 2 and 6, respectively. They manages to salvage a win in the final game of the series the next day (1207). It was their lone win in the first 19 games vs. the Red Sox that season.

20. Charles Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    1924 World Series October 5
    Senators lead 3-1 going to the ninth. At the top of the 9th, the starting pitcher for Washington, Zachary is still pitching. The Giants tie the score with 2 outs. Marberry comes in and strikes out Jackson on 3 pitches. The Senators score and win in the bottom of the ninth. Zachary gets the win.

    I found the scoring rule adopted in the mid 40's.
    The starter must work at least five innings in a nine-inning game, or four in a seven-inning game, to receive winning credit, with this exception: If he is taken out because of his team having secured a commanding and winning lead in the early innings, or is forced to retire through an Injury of illness, or is removed by the umpire when his team has a commanding lead, he is credited with the victory.
    Additionally. In case the relief pitcher also retires before completion
    of the game but the team remains ahead to win, the official scorer will use his own judgment and award victory between the first and second relief pitchers to the one who did the best work. Before that the starter got the credit if he left the game if he had the lead and the team retained it.

    I'm guessing that the only change is the minimum number of innings. Nothing about who the relever was when the winning run was scored.
    I can guess that in 1934 in Dean's game that since the starting pitcher could not get the win, the rules may have left it up to the scorer.

21. Hartvig Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    Watching a 1930 Phillies game must have been a treat and a half. In spite of a team batting average of .315 and managing to score 944 runs they still managed to lose 102 games. They accomplished this by giving up 271 more runs than the second worst staff in the league. Wow.

22. Ebessan Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Well, obviously the Baker Bowl was a hole, but Shibe Park wasn't. The Athletics were just bad for thirty years.

    Oh, the joys of being a Philadelphia Sports Fan.

23. Bip Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    @21

    Their pitching staff combined for -1.5 WAR despite -68 runs contributed by the defense. So, subtract some of the worst defense imaginable and they are still under replacement level.

24. Richard Chester Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    @15

    Four days later on June 27, 1934 Dean pitched into the top of the ninth and was removed with two out with the score tied at 7-7. The reliever retired the next batter and Bill Delancey homered for the Cards in the bottom of the ninth, giving the Cards an 8-7 win. The official scorer, the same guy from the June 23 game, again gave the victory to Dean. Both of these decisions were referred to the NL commissioner's (Heydler) for approval. He approved. Dean finished the season with 30 wins.

25. Richard Chester Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    @24

    I left out the word "office" after commissioner's.

26. Mustachioed Repetition Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    Interesting stuff guys about the mutating qualifications for a Win. Seems that the scorer used to have more say in giving the decision to someone who contributed the most, not just the guy fortunate enough to become the pitcher of record. Just another thing to remember when comparing stats across eras (though the effect is probably minimal). I wonder if it was decided scorers might feel too pressured or influenced in certain situations to give the decision to a particular player, so the rule became more codified.

27. Kahuna Tuna Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    The Baker Bowl Phillies make the list nine times in 17 seasons (1922-38). The fun part about that is that the 1938 team played only 28 games in Baker Bowl, yet allowed 16+ runs in three of those games.

28. Neil L. Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    @16
    Doug, very nice catch on a modern-era game.

29. DoubleDiamond Says:
    July 15th, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    Not surprising that the other team, besides the 1922 Cubs, to win one of these games was the Rockies, in 2008. And yes, that win was in Colorado, 18-17, over their 1993 expansion twin Marlins, on the 4th of July. Must have been one heck of a fireworks display! One of their other 16+ loss games that year was a 20-5 game against the Phillies - in Citizens Bank Park (only 8 offensive innings for those 20 runs, and for that matter, only 8 for those 18 runs in that Marlins game). The Phillies also scored 20 runs in a game in St. Louis that season.

30. jay Says:
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    On July 23, 1930, the Phillies lost 15-16 to the Pirates in 13 innings in the second game of a doubleheader. On the 24th, they lost 15-19 to the Cubs. Yes, they scored thirty runs in back-to-back games and lost both games! On September 23, they scored 16 runs against the Cardinals ... but they gave up 19! On the season they scored ten runs or more 26 times but won only 17 of those games. Never has so much great offense been spoiled by such terrible pitching.