Trivia challenge
Posted by Andy on January 27, 2011
The following players are ranked in the order shown, 1 through 20, for what since 1901?
| Rk | Player |
|---|---|
| 1 | Rogers Hornsby |
| 2 | Mickey Mantle |
| 3 | Tris Speaker |
| 4 | Dick Allen |
| 5 | Willie Mays |
| 6 | Mel Ott |
| 7 | Charlie Keller |
| 8 | Honus Wagner |
| 9 | Gavvy Cravath |
| 10 | Benny Kauff |
| 11 | Mike Donlin |
| 12 | Elmer Flick |
| 13 | Hack Wilson |
| 14 | George Stone |
| 15 | Kevin Mitchell |
| 16 | Eddie Collins |
| 17 | Gary Sheffield |
| 18 | Prince Fielder |
| 19 | Jeff Heath |
| 20 | Pedro Guerrero |
Thanks to a reader named Brian who sent in a similar idea--seemed like a good one to pose as a trivia question.
January 27th, 2011 at 8:55 am
Is it an RBI rate stat, like RBIs per plate appearance?
January 27th, 2011 at 9:00 am
Are these the top 20 in the ranking, or just 20 players chosen from the ranking?
January 27th, 2011 at 9:10 am
Wild guess: Isolated power relative to league average other than Babe Ruth?
January 27th, 2011 at 9:19 am
These are the top 20 players for a specific PI search that I did. I set a minimum of 3000 plate appearances.
None of the guesses so far are correct, and I will add that it's not a math-type search as in #1 above--the PI results ranked these players (as opposed to me searching for players with an RBI/PA over a certain amount and then ranking them myself.)
January 27th, 2011 at 9:24 am
Is this based on Doubles as a rookie?
January 27th, 2011 at 9:26 am
Players with <= 0.7 runs / game & <= 0.7 rbi / game; sorted by OPS+.
I can't be positive because I haven't checked the entire list of career OPS+ leaders.
January 27th, 2011 at 9:30 am
I don't want to give any hints, but I will say I was thinking about how awesome Kevin Mitchell was when I got the idea for my (similar) query.
January 27th, 2011 at 9:32 am
#5, my search had nothing to do with doubles.
#6, as I said above, my search did not involve any math, such as R or RBI per game.
#7 Brian, yeah--this was a nice find by you...thanks!
January 27th, 2011 at 9:49 am
My guess {and that is ALL it is} would be that it has something to do with either Caught Stealing percentage, or busted sacrifices.
January 27th, 2011 at 9:51 am
#9 no on both.
January 27th, 2011 at 9:53 am
Weird mix of deadball era guys and more recent ones, a bunch of players who started like gangbusters then flamed out (or are still playing, like Fielder)... Most total bases by age 30?
January 27th, 2011 at 9:55 am
It's absolutely careen OPS+, but I'm not sure what the other criteria is, as there's no sign of Bonds, Ruth, etc. You more seasoned B-R guys can help me on this one.
January 27th, 2011 at 9:56 am
Easy. It's the list of the coolest players ever to pick up OR throw a bat. Number 4 an example of the former; number 20 an example of the latter (when he tried to take David Cone's head off after being hit by a pitch)..
January 27th, 2011 at 9:56 am
The secondary criteria must not be a counting stat, as guys with few plate appearances like Guererro are mixed with Honus Wagner.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:00 am
inside the park HRs?
January 27th, 2011 at 10:01 am
to #11 - Cravath wasn't a regular until he was 30/31 and Kauff was kicked out of baseball at age 30.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:01 am
Jeff Heath has got to be the key, as he never did anything that would land him on any normal top-20 list.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:02 am
#11 - The inclusion of Cravath rules out a 30 and under criteria.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:02 am
#12 is on the right track...it's highest career OPS+ for players that fit some other criterion as well. None of the other guesses are correct.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:06 am
Career OPS+ for players under 6 feet tall.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Great guess Neil, I think your right.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Yes, Neil got it.
Good job, all, and nice teamwork.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:12 am
Yay! Major assist to Dante, as I wouldn't have thought of OPS+ otherwise.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:13 am
Does this have to do with their height? All the players seem to be under 6'.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:14 am
...I was late to that response.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:15 am
All of them are smaller than 6'0 and all pretty good hitters, that's why Ruth, Gerigh and Williams do not appear. It involves average and power , so could be OPS. Am I correct on the height issue?
January 27th, 2011 at 10:16 am
Once again I have found the new best player that I had never heard of - Jeff Heath. - 139 OPS+. wow. I love this site.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:17 am
But it's not career OPS+ for players with 100 career triples, although some names are on both lists.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:18 am
Career OPS+ for players under 6 feet tall!
January 27th, 2011 at 10:19 am
I can't believe that Pedro Guerrero is under 6 ft. I also can't believe Ty Cobb was 6'1". Personal perceptions are funny.
January 27th, 2011 at 10:35 am
Here's the 19th century guys and their place in the list:
2.5 - Dave Orr
9.5 - Charley Jones
14T - Harry Stovey
14T - Bill Joyce
15T - Ed Swartwood
16.5 - Billy Hamilton
16.5 - Henry Larkin
17T - Jesse Burkett
18T - Denny Lyons
19.5 - King Kelly
20T - Mike Tiernan
January 27th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Oops... I forgot 18t - Billy Hamilton.
Did that list with hunts and pecks so I might have missed someone. The big guns of the 19th century (Anson Brouthers Connor) were tall, though.
January 27th, 2011 at 11:03 am
Kevin Mitchel's nickname is "WORLD" - he is a short world.
You've wasted my morning.
In a good way.
January 27th, 2011 at 11:33 am
Yeah, Jeff Heath is interesting.
He had 187 RBIs in his lone minor league season (124 games!) and is also the first AL player to hit 20+ 2B, 3B and HR in a season (1941).
January 27th, 2011 at 11:56 am
TangentMan adds that Kevin Mitchell's "most similar" player is the lately departed Gus Zernial....
P.S. Mitchell's prime was 1989-94.
Here are the Top 10 in combined OPS+ in that period (min. 2,000 PAs):
10. Mark McGwire, 141
9. Jose Canseco, 143
8. Will Clark, 144
7. Rickey Henderson, 146
6. Junior Griffey, 149
5. & 4. Fred McGriff & Jeff Bagwell, 155
3. Kevin Mitchell, 159
2. Barry Bonds, 174
1. Frank Thomas, 184
FWIW ... Does anyone else feel that we've somewhat forgotten what an historically great hitter Thomas was in the first half of his career?
-- Through age 30, Thomas had a 174 OPS+. That's better than Albert Pujols through age 30 (172), and ranks 7th in MLB history, after Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Gehrig, Hornsby and Mantle. Pujols is tied for 8th with Musial.
-- Through age 32 (the point at which Thomas had about as many career games and PAs as Albert has to date), Thomas had a 168 OPS+, just a bit below Albert's 172.
-- Through his first 8 seasons (1990-97), Thomas had a 182 OPS+; only Ted Williams has ever topped that number through his first 8 years.
January 27th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
#34 - According to Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups, Mitchell was nicknamed 'World' with the Mets because of his positional flexability. In 1986 he played everywhere except 2B, C, and P.
But, yes, it really is a small world after all.
January 27th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
John (#36), yesterday I had the PI assemble another list on which Frank Thomas stands alone at the top: Most seasons by a batter qualifying for the batting title in which he had no triples (9).
January 27th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
@36
I agree. I think people overlook Big Hurt a lot. That being said, he's still a top-10 all-time first baseman by pretty much anyone's estimation, right? So that's still good. I'd go as far as top-5, with Pujols, Bagwell, Gehrig and Foxx (though not in that order). He's 5th in WAR among 1B (behind the four aforementioned players), and Bill James ranked him 10th ten years ago, but 1.) James tried to be conservative with active players, which Thomas still was, and 2.) Thomas produced a pretty fair amount of value as a DH thereafter (2002-2007). Of course, he benefited more from the DH rule than pretty much anyone in history (yes, more than Edgar Martinez, but probably not quite as much as Paul Molitor) and actually played more games as a DH than a 1B, so I guess whether or not you want to consider him a 1B is up to you. I just know I used to love watching him hit.
January 27th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
speaking of frank thomas, i was just browsing his stats and noticed in 2006 he hit 39 hr and 11 doubles. this must be one of the highest single season 2b to hr ratios ever. would someone like to research this?
January 27th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
^^ *highest hr to 2b ratios*
January 27th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
As I said above, Kevin Mitchell inspired me to send my related query in in the first place. I'm a native Cincinnatian, and the numbers Mitchell put up with the Reds (.332/.414/.631 in 225 games), on those rare occasions when he was actually IN the line up, are ridiculous. So that got me thinking about how rare it is in modern times to have a player of his stature (5'10") with that kind of power.
Highest career slugging percentage since 1961:
1. Mickey Mantle 5'11" .539
2. Willie Mays 5'10" .537
3. Prince Fielder 5'11" .535
4. Dick Allen 5'11" .534
5. Kevin Mitchell 5'10" .520
6. Gary Sheffield 5'11" .514
7. Brian Giles 5'11" .502
8. Dan Uggla 5'11" .488
9. Raul Mondesi 5'11" .485
10. Matt Stairs 5'9" .481
January 27th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
As I said above, Kevin Mitchell inspired me to send my related query in in the first place. I'm a native Cincinnatian, and the numbers Mitchell put up with the Reds (.332/.414/.631 in 225 games), on those rare occasions when he was actually IN the line up, are ridiculous. So that got me thinking about how rare it is in modern times to have a player of his stature (5'10") with that kind of power.
Highest career slugging percentage since 1961:
1. Mickey Mantle 5'11" .539
2. Willie Mays 5'10" .537
3. Prince Fielder 5'11" .535
4. Dick Allen 5'11" .534
5. Kevin Mitchell 5'10" .520
6. Gary Sheffield 5'11" .514
7. Brian Giles 5'11" .502
8. Dan Uggla 5'11" .488
9. Raul Mondesi 5'11" .485
10. Matt Stairs 5'9" .481
January 27th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Whoops. Apologies.
January 27th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
@39, daniel25625 -- The record for highest ratio of HR to 2B (with at least 30 HRs) was set by Harmon Killebrew in 1964: 49 HRs, 11 doubles, ratio of 4.45 HR per 2B.
Dave Kingman had a 4.11 ratio in 1982: 37 HR, 9 doubles.
January 27th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
mark Mcgwire lifetime as a Cardinal:
220 Hrs, 57 2bs and 191 singles.
Pretty bizarre.
January 27th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Batter seasons from 1901 to 2010 for non-pitchers with at least 100 plate appearances and more home runs than singles: McGwire 4 (1995, 1998, 1999, 2001); Frank Thomas 1 (2005), Richie Sexson 1 (2004), Bobby Estalella 1 (2002), Barry Bonds 1 (2001). That’s it.
January 28th, 2011 at 12:42 am
@ 27 Tmckelv
Re: Jeff Heath
I checked The Wikipedia on him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Heath
It brings up the main thing I remember about him;
1948 the Boston Braves are on their way to a surprising National League pennant.
In the last week of the season in what ("I think") was a meaningless game, Jeff Heath was attempting to slide into home plate and broke his ankle.
In those days I remember the photographers were allowed to be on the playing field in foul territory and one of them caught the leg being shattered with the lower ankle rotated 90 degrees to the upper ankle as the Wikipedia describes it.
Naturally the break caused him to miss his only chance in the post season in his career.
They didn't have playoffs then.
Per BB-Ref stats show he tried to come back in 1949 but had only 126 PA's in 36 games. He did hit .306/.389/.613 for a OPS of 1.002 but per WikiPedia was done after that.,
January 28th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Highest OPS through or in age 30 seasons?
Interestingly, Bill James in his BJHA, has stated, more or less:
1) Hornsby - biggest asshole in MLB history
2) Mantle - drunk
3) Speaker - Klansman
4) Allen - 2nd biggest AH in MLB history and destroyer of clubhouses despite teammates like Goose Gossage call him the greatest player he ever was a team mate of........
January 28th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
@39, @44, @45: low 2Bs-to-HRs ratios:
Both Maris and Mantle hit only 16 doubles in 1961:
Maris 61 HR/16 2B = 3.8125 (also 40/17 in 1960)
Mantle 54 HR/16 2B = 3.50 (also 39/18 in 1960)
What was going on in Yankee Stadium in 1961? Yogi Berra had a 22:11 ratio, and Johnny Blanchard 21:10 ratio. In the rest of the 1961 AL, I could only find:
- Harmon KIllebrew (46/20)
- Lee Thomas (24/11)
- Marv Throneberry (11/5)
who had a 2:1 ratio of HR to 2Bs, with double figures in HRs
January 30th, 2011 at 5:36 am
We have discussed Allen at length elsewhere. James I understand has recanted his ranking of Allen, which clearly was biased & contained a large subjective factor. Many team-mates & managers spoke highly of him as a man also, & while he had some issues, was victimized by virulent racism, including the teammate Frank White who after Allen defended another from racist attacks, injured Allen with a baseball bat.
His page's sponsor here has a great web site on him, representing great defense/evidence that he was admired by many, & a good force on many, despite some issues.
January 31st, 2011 at 10:53 am
@ Mike Felber
I guess my point was it's just a shame Bill James was so "virulent" in his "subjectivity" while ignoring his "ultimate" player value calculator, "Win Shares", when appraising Allen's career. I believe Allen's 1964, per both Win Shares (41) and WAR (9.2), is the greatest of any rookie position player of the 20th century. The objective evidence James puts forward (best three years, best five consecutive years, WS/162 games) actually indicates Allen is a top-5 all-time 1B. Dick Allen (and all blacks of his and prior generations) faced serious social issues off the field, however, it was a lack of good talent surrounding him that dooms his body of work as a
February 1st, 2011 at 8:35 pm
I agree wholeheartedly Paul. i did not know he was quite #1 as a rookie position player in modern baseball.You have nailed it exactly, & likely would have continued to with the thought that was not quite completed above.
February 2nd, 2011 at 11:58 am
Mike @ 52 above,
Sorry I cut it short. Basically, my thought was that Allen's legacy is doomed by some marginal talent surrounding him. That is to say, there exists a strong prejudice against ballplayers who didn't have postseason glory and he was never going to get there short of 50 homer seasons. Santo and Allen are probably the primary examples of great talents who don't have a post-season body of work yet the regular season clearly indicates these two were amongst the greatest players of their era-an era where pitching dominated more than any other in the last 90 years. I hope someone like Rich Lederer can bang the HOF drum for these two, soon...