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1500+ IP After 1932 With ERA+ 100+ & Never An All-Star

Posted by Steve Lombardi on April 11, 2011

How many pitchers had 1,500 IP after 1932 with an ERA+ of 100 or better in their career and never made an All-Star team?

Here's the list:

Rk Player ERA+ IP From To Age G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV H R ER BB SO ERA HR BF IBB HBP BK WP Tm BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ SH SF 2B 3B GDP SB CS PO
1 John Tudor 125 1797.0 1979 1990 25-36 281 263 50 16 5 117 72 .619 1 1677 700 623 475 988 3.12 156 7368 32 29 10 18 BOS-PIT-STL-TOT-LAD .248 .299 .374 .673 87 69 45 315 32 137 102 78 36
2 Gene Garber 117 1510.0 1969 1988 21-40 931 9 4 0 609 96 113 .459 218 1464 654 560 445 940 3.34 123 6327 155 37 10 30 PIT-KCR-TOT-PHI-ATL .257 .312 .367 .679 88 93 46 204 28 156 168 55 1
3 Alex Fernandez 115 1760.1 1990 2000 20-30 263 261 33 10 1 107 87 .552 0 1693 804 731 552 1252 3.74 190 7370 29 35 2 38 CHW-FLA .254 .312 .395 .707 89 60 49 279 47 141 77 66 7
4 Bill Hands 115 1951.0 1965 1975 25-35 374 260 72 17 69 111 110 .502 14 1895 834 727 492 1128 3.35 167 8116 55 36 5 46 SFG-CHC-MIN-TOT-TEX .253 .301 .368 .669 87 72 33 274 42 182 99 59 16
5 Kelvim Escobar 113 1507.0 1997 2009 21-33 411 202 10 4 132 101 91 .526 59 1461 755 695 611 1310 4.15 137 6483 28 47 1 54 TOR-ANA-LAA .254 .329 .388 .717 85 33 39 318 21 125 165 42 7
6 Fritz Ostermueller 110 2066.2 1934 1948 26-40 390 246 113 11 85 114 115 .498 15 2170 1062 917 835 774 3.99 105 9116   21 1 60 BOS-SLB-TOT-PIT                          
7 Jarrod Washburn 109 1863.2 1998 2009 23-34 312 300 9 4 4 107 109 .495 1 1855 900 848 569 1103 4.10 240 7889 21 65 3 30 ANA-LAA-SEA-TOT .259 .317 .426 .744 95 49 56 406 33 143 72 60 35
8 Charlie Leibrandt 109 2308.0 1979 1993 22-36 394 346 52 18 17 140 119 .541 2 2390 1068 952 656 1121 3.71 172 9774 44 37 31 63 CIN-KCR-ATL-TEX .268 .319 .390 .709 95 110 60 457 56 180 224 91 35
9 Tom Candiotti 108 2725.0 1983 1999 25-41 451 410 68 11 11 151 164 .479 0 2662 1299 1130 883 1735 3.73 250 11568 31 85 27 120 MIL-CLE-TOT-LAD-OAK .256 .317 .382 .698 92 108 91 454 51 221 293 101 18
10 Jeff Fassero 108 2033.2 1991 2006 28-43 720 242 17 2 146 121 124 .494 25 2083 1042 929 724 1643 4.11 214 8810 50 37 8 86 MON-SEA-TOT-BOS-CHC-STL-SFG .264 .327 .406 .732 93 108 62 399 36 144 180 88 51
11 Geoff Zahn 107 1849.0 1973 1985 27-39 304 270 79 20 13 111 109 .505 1 1978 889 769 526 705 3.74 149 7798 28 19 4 32 LAD-TOT-CHC-MIN-CAL .278 .327 .399 .726 99 81 56 323 47 249 48 88 25
12 A.J. Burnett 107 1781.0 1999 2011 22-34 283 279 21 9 1 112 100 .528 0 1606 867 790 746 1629 3.99 173 7588 25 89 5 101 FLA-TOR-NYY .242 .324 .378 .702 87 56 52 325 30 156 209 69 23
13 Chris Bosio 107 1710.0 1986 1996 23-33 309 246 39 9 32 94 93 .503 9 1742 835 753 481 1059 3.96 162 7225 22 41 9 61 MIL-SEA .264 .315 .394 .709 91 46 59 295 37 155 109 41 10
14 Dennis Leonard 107 2187.0 1974 1986 23-35 312 302 103 23 3 144 106 .576 1 2137 1008 898 622 1323 3.70 202 9149 39 52 6 73 KCR .257 .310 .386 .696 91 82 65 355 57 160 143 83 19
15 Danny Darwin 106 3016.2 1978 1998 22-42 716 371 53 9 171 171 182 .484 32 2951 1431 1286 874 1942 3.84 321 12716 101 81 17 52 TEX-MIL-TOT-HOU-BOS-SFG .256 .310 .399 .709 94 124 111 544 72 195 262 90 9
16 Bob Miller 106 1551.1 1957 1974 18-35 694 99 7 0 290 69 81 .460 51 1487 679 581 608 895 3.37 101 6623 111 32 3 62 STL-NYM-LAD-MIN-TOT-PIT .255 .326 .355 .681 97 98 50 205 37 163 64 53 8
17 Bill Swift 106 1599.2 1985 1998 23-36 403 220 11 4 67 94 78 .547 27 1688 801 702 507 767 3.95 116 6817 42 53 16 38 SEA-SFG-COL .274 .333 .386 .719 95 55 30 291 28 234 86 52 4
18 Jim Barr 106 2065.1 1971 1983 23-35 454 252 64 20 74 101 112 .474 12 2170 908 816 469 741 3.56 161 8612 74 30 14 22 SFG-CAL .273 .313 .396 .709 100 96 78 339 74 176 146 69 35
19 Dave Koslo 105 1591.1 1941 1955 21-35 348 189 74 15 93 92 107 .462 22 1597 740 651 538 606 3.68 121 6803 0 20 1 21 NYG-TOT-MLN .636 .789 .377 1.166 218 29 2 73 20 62 14 13 1
20 Zane Smith 105 1919.1 1984 1996 23-35 360 291 35 16 16 100 115 .465 3 1980 933 798 583 1011 3.74 122 8077 55 31 5 28 ATL-TOT-PIT-BOS .271 .326 .383 .709 97 110 42 351 53 263 214 69 16
21 Denny Galehouse 105 2004.0 1934 1949 22-37 375 258 100 17 67 109 118 .480 13 2148 999 885 735 851 3.97 104 8688   18 3 29 CLE-BOS-SLB-TOT                          
22 Dave Goltz 105 2039.2 1972 1983 23-34 353 264 83 13 39 113 109 .509 8 2104 950 836 646 1105 3.69 149 8628 28 26 10 62 MIN-LAD-TOT-CAL .269 .325 .384 .709 98 78 60 325 64 218 149 100 18
23 John Denny 105 2148.2 1974 1986 21-33 325 322 62 18 0 123 108 .532 0 2093 967 856 778 1146 3.59 137 9077 49 54 12 68 STL-CLE-TOT-PHI-CIN .258 .325 .365 .690 95 82 46 342 59 250 130 94 21
24 Jim Rooker 105 1810.1 1968 1980 25-37 319 255 66 15 23 103 109 .486 7 1694 814 696 703 976 3.46 128 7668 55 18 6 55 DET-KCR-PIT .249 .319 .362 .680 95 94 56 283 48 159 104 71 17
25 Bob Ojeda 104 1884.1 1980 1994 22-36 351 291 41 16 26 115 98 .540 1 1833 856 764 676 1128 3.65 145 7977 48 24 19 30 BOS-NYM-LAD-CLE-NYY .257 .321 .378 .699 97 85 62 334 46 151 178 111 21
26 Bryn Smith 104 1791.1 1981 1993 25-37 365 255 23 8 39 108 94 .535 6 1725 808 702 432 1028 3.53 140 7434 43 48 16 33 MON-STL-COL .253 .300 .372 .672 92 87 47 279 56 147 194 71 3
27 Bobby Bolin 104 1576.0 1961 1973 22-34 495 164 32 10 161 88 75 .540 50 1364 687 596 597 1175 3.40 164 6671 71 60 3 56 SFG-TOT-BOS .231 .306 .362 .668 93 72 40 214 33 84 114 38 3
28 Doug Davis 104 1670.0 1999 2010 23-34 297 277 7 3 4 91 101 .474 0 1754 883 813 757 1243 4.38 178 7373 27 42 10 63 TEX-TOT-MIL-ARI .272 .351 .420 .771 101 95 42 336 41 170 86 53 44
29 Roger Craig 104 1536.1 1955 1966 25-36 368 186 58 7 79 74 98 .430 19 1528 763 653 522 803 3.83 186 6545 48 35 12 42 BRO-LAD-NYM-STL-CIN-PHI .259 .321 .406 .727 100 57 40 217 44 143 50 43 25
30 Dennis Lamp 104 1830.2 1977 1992 24-39 639 163 21 7 173 96 96 .500 35 1975 915 799 549 857 3.93 122 7823 86 35 14 44 CHC-CHW-TOR-OAK-BOS-PIT .278 .331 .384 .716 95 95 40 290 50 215 201 76 12
31 Buddy Black 104 2053.1 1981 1995 24-38 398 296 32 12 42 121 116 .511 11 1978 982 876 623 1039 3.84 217 8627 49 49 43 65 SEA-KCR-TOT-CLE-SFG .253 .310 .391 .701 94 78 55 330 49 160 129 94 35
32 Bump Hadley 104 1628.2 1933 1941 28-36 287 190 69 7 60 89 88 .503 13 1717 916 791 801 649 4.37 118 7258   26 3 50 SLB-WSH-NYY-TOT                          
33 Dick Drago 103 1875.0 1969 1981 24-36 519 189 62 10 216 108 117 .480 58 1901 827 755 558 987 3.62 157 7899 75 54 3 34 KCR-BOS-CAL-TOT-SEA .266 .321 .390 .711 101 77 63 315 50 193 121 73 12
34 Bill Wight 103 1563.0 1946 1958 24-36 347 198 66 15 59 77 99 .438 8 1656 791 686 714 574 3.95 74 6851 7 14 7 45 NYY-CHW-BOS-TOT-BAL .413 .531 .364 .895 143 82 16 135 25 115 41 19 29
35 Nelson Briles 103 2111.2 1965 1978 21-34 452 279 64 17 74 129 112 .535 22 2141 929 807 547 1163 3.44 186 8858 79 51 5 50 STL-PIT-KCR-TEX-TOT-BAL .264 .312 .383 .695 100 84 55 313 50 166 108 90 14
36 Ismael Valdez 103 1827.1 1994 2005 20-31 325 288 13 6 12 104 105 .498 1 1872 892 830 523 1173 4.09 234 7760 39 47 18 23 LAD-TOT-ANA-TEX-FLA .265 .318 .425 .743 99 68 47 352 41 143 129 50 19
37 Harry Gumbert 103 2156.0 1935 1950 25-40 508 235 96 13 180 143 113 .559 48 2186 1012 882 721 709 3.68 121 9217   23 3 40 NYG-TOT-STL-CIN-PIT 242.889 266.364 .444 266.808 78394 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
38 Bruce Kison 103 1809.2 1971 1985 21-35 380 246 36 8 54 115 88 .567 12 1693 839 736 662 1073 3.66 150 7676 58 68 11 58 PIT-CAL-BOS .248 .319 .374 .693 95 75 52 304 51 163 112 58 3
39 Jose DeLeon 102 1897.1 1983 1995 22-34 415 264 21 7 36 86 119 .420 6 1556 877 793 841 1594 3.76 153 7985 50 62 8 60 PIT-TOT-CHW-STL .224 .311 .347 .658 86 77 63 289 52 96 218 101 2
40 Rudy May 102 2622.0 1965 1983 20-38 535 360 87 24 73 152 156 .494 12 2314 1150 1007 958 1760 3.46 199 10902 56 42 18 67 CAL-TOT-NYY-BAL-MON .238 .308 .349 .656 90 130 67 385 45 220 134 109 21
41 Ken Johnson 102 1737.1 1958 1970 25-37 334 231 50 7 50 91 106 .462 9 1670 778 668 413 1042 3.46 157 7211 56 56 7 26 KCA-TOT-HOU-ATL-MON .253 .301 .378 .679 94 97 41 260 47 109 77 63 7
42 Carl Morton 102 1648.2 1969 1976 25-32 255 242 51 13 4 87 92 .486 1 1753 776 684 565 650 3.73 120 7113 65 27 9 18 MON-ATL .275 .334 .383 .716 101 85 51 234 48 159 111 58 5
43 Max Butcher 102 1786.1 1936 1945 25-34 334 228 104 14 60 95 106 .473 9 1935 886 741 583 485 3.73 100 7761   23 4 23 BRO-TOT-PIT                          
44 Dick Tidrow 102 1746.2 1972 1984 25-37 620 138 32 5 244 100 94 .515 55 1705 807 715 579 975 3.68 163 7412 112 43 2 32 CLE-TOT-NYY-CHC-CHW-NYM .257 .318 .385 .703 98 93 61 281 39 143 148 35 5
45 Ron Kline 102 2078.0 1952 1970 20-38 736 203 44 8 338 114 144 .442 108 2113 991 866 731 989 3.75 217 8868 118 33 7 59 PIT-STL-TOT-DET-WSA-MIN-ATL .266 .329 .404 .732 100 114 59 306 66 186 67 62 6
46 Tim Belcher 102 2442.2 1987 2000 25-38 394 373 42 18 13 146 140 .510 5 2423 1253 1130 860 1519 4.16 264 10422 43 58 10 73 LAD-CIN-TOT-DET-SEA-KCR-ANA .259 .323 .404 .727 96 82 73 427 68 180 126 109 9
47 Rick Helling 102 1526.1 1994 2006 23-35 301 234 10 4 22 93 81 .534 0 1540 842 793 562 1058 4.68 247 6564 24 48 4 48 TEX-TOT-ARI-MIL .263 .329 .466 .795 102 37 62 353 47 103 86 70 13
48 Elden Auker 102 1963.1 1933 1942 22-31 333 261 126 14 40 130 101 .563 2 2230 1106 964 706 594 4.42 129 8686   36 3 8 DET-BOS-SLB                          
49 Darren Oliver 101 1763.2 1993 2011 22-40 597 229 11 4 72 108 85 .560 3 1902 992 914 679 1124 4.66 205 7723 43 89 13 57 TEX-TOT-STL-BOS-COL-NYM-LAA .279 .349 .440 .788 102 66 64 405 39 186 129 81 38
50 Moe Drabowsky 101 1641.0 1956 1972 20-36 589 154 33 6 220 88 105 .456 55 1441 758 676 702 1162 3.71 182 7005 62 63 5 53 CHC-MLN-TOT-KCA-BAL-KCR-STL .235 .318 .379 .697 97 76 48 236 47 112 78 42 3
51 Kevin Tapani 101 2265.0 1989 2001 25-37 361 354 26 9 1 143 125 .534 0 2407 1168 1094 554 1482 4.35 260 9600 30 53 6 44 TOT-MIN-CHW-CHC .272 .317 .431 .748 97 80 68 518 53 156 194 82 4
52 Paul Splittorff 101 2554.2 1970 1984 23-37 429 392 88 17 13 166 143 .537 1 2644 1243 1082 780 1057 3.81 192 10829 41 34 5 41 KCR .270 .323 .390 .713 98 122 92 445 79 276 176 92 37
53 Miguel Batista 101 1848.0 1992 2011 21-40 591 238 10 4 151 97 110 .469 41 1918 1030 923 835 1187 4.50 186 8156 52 72 6 98 PIT-FLA-CHC-MON-TOT-ARI-TOR-SEA-WSN-STL .270 .350 .413 .763 100 81 71 374 39 193 160 67 7
54 Mark Portugal 100 1826.1 1985 1999 22-36 346 283 16 4 24 109 95 .534 5 1813 896 817 607 1134 4.03 209 7726 27 36 7 57 MIN-HOU-SFG-TOT-CIN-PHI-BOS .261 .321 .406 .727 100 78 46 318 33 157 136 61 11
55 Tom Underwood 100 1586.0 1974 1984 20-30 379 203 35 6 68 86 87 .497 18 1554 772 685 662 948 3.89 130 6814 38 28 12 62 PHI-TOT-TOR-NYY-OAK-BAL .259 .333 .387 .720 100 79 51 259 57 164 80 66 4
56 Todd Stottlemyre 100 2191.2 1988 2002 23-37 372 339 25 6 12 138 121 .533 1 2200 1130 1042 816 1587 4.28 246 9441 49 83 10 64 TOR-OAK-STL-TOT-ARI .262 .330 .410 .740 99 61 78 401 52 138 251 92 10
57 Nels Potter 100 1686.0 1936 1949 24-37 349 177 89 6 126 92 97 .487 22 1721 843 748 582 747 3.99 123 7248   21 6 40 STL-PHA-TOT-SLB-BSN                          
58 Dave Burba 100 1777.2 1990 2004 23-37 511 234 6 1 71 115 87 .569 3 1777 961 886 762 1398 4.49 201 7749 53 58 4 75 SEA-SFG-TOT-CIN-CLE-MIL .260 .337 .416 .753 98 51 55 384 36 131 152 56 2
59 Jim Abbott 100 1674.0 1989 1999 21-31 263 254 31 6 5 87 108 .446 0 1779 880 791 620 888 4.25 154 7211 30 32 11 53 CAL-NYY-TOT-CHW-MIL .276 .340 .399 .739 100 70 47 293 18 200 153 78 25
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/11/2011.

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Anyone on the list surprise you?

Related posts:

    5000+ PA After 1932 With OPS+ 100+ & Never An All-Star
    All-Star or Not an All-Star Option added to the Play Index Season Finders

This entry was posted on Monday, April 11th, 2011 at 9:46 pm and is filed under Season Finders. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

33 Responses to “1500+ IP After 1932 With ERA+ 100+ & Never An All-Star”

  1. Chris Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:28 pm

    There are several players on that list I thought were All-Stars at one point: A.J. Burnett, Jeff Fassero, Alex Fernandez, and Jarrod Washburn.

  2. Richard Chester Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:29 pm

    When I ran the P-I Freddie Fitzsimmons showed up with a ERA= of 110.

  3. Richard Chester Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    @2

    Make that an ERA+ of 110.

  4. Andy Patton Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:32 pm

    I already knew about Burnett, but that one would have surprised me. Also Dennis Lamp went 11-0 one year without an AS appearance, surprising considering how much voters care about WL%

  5. bluejaysstatsgeek Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:36 pm

    @4 Fans didn't vote for pitchers back then, and Lamp's 11-0 was completely in relief - what some call vulture wins.

  6. Neil L. Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    How did John Tudor miss out, especially with his lights-out '85 season? I guess it shows that timing is everything in terms of first and second halves of the year.

    @4 Andy. Without even looking it up Lamp's, freakish season was 1985 also. All wins as a middle reliever so not much of a splash for all-star consideration.

  7. Thomas Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    @4 did anyone ever 'vote' on pitchers? It wasn't always just the manager picking?

  8. John Autin Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 10:59 pm

    Tudor had a 2.27 ERA and WHIP < 1 in the first half of '85, but just a 10-7 record. Even so, he was already red-hot; he won 8 straight starts with an 0.78 ERA heading into the break, including 3 shutouts. And he presumably would have been available to pitch in the A-S Game, as his last start came 5 days before.

    (Incidentally, Dwight Gooden did not pitch in that '85 All-Star game, having thrown a shutout on the Sunday before the break, which ran his record to 13-3, 1.68. But Doc was named to the team.)

  9. Richard Chester Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 11:00 pm

    @3

    My apologies Steve. When I first ran the index and set the the index years I used 1932 as the first year instead of 1933. Using 1933 leaves Fitzsimmons off the list.

    By the way I was able to extract the list even though I am not a P-I subscriber.

  10. John Autin Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 11:11 pm

    When I saw Danny Darwin with over 3,000 IP, I figured he was the career leader in the All-Star era among those who never made the team. But no, there was another with a few more IP. He's not on this list, as career ERA+ was 98.

    Big hint: He was pitching a shutout with 2 down in the 7th inning of a crucial 1978 game, trying to eliminate the team he'd pitched for the year before.

  11. Richard Chester Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 11:20 pm

    @9

    From 1933 to the end of his career Fitzsimmons had an ERA+ of 115 but had only 1486.2 IP just missing your cutoff.

  12. Neil L. Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 1:06 am

    Seeing Gene Garber so close to the top of the list prompted me to look at his career because I never considered him a particularly effective pitcher. His awful winning percentage (53rd on the list) combined with a decent career ERA+ seems intriguing.

    I guess he was a victim of that incredible 6-16 1979 season, when he lost the most games by a reliever in modern baseball history. I know it was a bad Braves team but how do you lose 16 games in relief?

  13. John Q Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 1:23 am

    There's a lot of very good underrated pitchers on this list.

    Tudor was a terrific pitcher it just seems like he wasn't very lucky most of his career. The Pirates traded him for a 35 year old George Hendrick???

    I think John Denny is the only pitcher on this list to win a Cy Young and never make an all star team.

    It's mind-bogling, this list just reminds me that the Yankees are paying A.J. Burnett $16 million dollars a year for the next 3 years and they've already paid him $33 million for the past two years. It's hard to comprehend that he made money that Albert Pujols in '09-10 and he'll make more than Pujols in '11 as well.

  14. Nash Bruce Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 1:39 am

    Tudor, Leonard, and Candiotti......yikes. That's a hell of a 1-2-3 right there. I'd take them.

  15. Mike Felber Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 2:38 am

    I would like to see a list of pitchers who were the most better of worse than their ERA + would indicate. Considering defensive support mostly.

  16. Splint Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 8:03 am

    For some reason, I'll never forget reading a spring training preview in Sports Illustrated when I was a kid that was giving short reviews of the starting pitchers for each team. Tom Candiotti's always stuck with me: "An assortment of slop ranging from 65 to 75 mph."

    I just loved that The Candy Man's strength was just throwing you a bunch of junk and challenging you to do something with it.

  17. John Q Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 9:15 am

    @15 Mike Felber,

    Tom Candiotti's teams came up with a (-78) fielding by total zone's rating. I didn't check all the pitchers but I would think that's the worst.

    Candiotti seemed to have unlucky timing and be at the wrong place at the wrong time. He played with the Indians in the 80's and the Dodgers in the 90's. He would have received more accolades and been perceived as more successful had he had those things happen in reverse, say pitching for the Dodgers in the 80's and pitching for the Indians in the 90's.

    John Denny played for some poor fielding teams in STL, CLE & Philly (-37).

    Bill Hands had (-22)

    Charlie Leibrandt (-23)

    Ostermueller (-21)

  18. Jon S C Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Although he did not make it as a player, Roger Craig made the 1990 All-Star Team as a Manager...

  19. Atom Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    Tudor averaged a 146 ERA+ and a 2.52 ERA over his last six seasons!

    1985: 1.93 ERA in 275 IP
    1986: 2.92 ERA in 219 IP
    1987: 3.84 ERA in 96 IP
    1988: 2.32 ERA in 197.7 IP
    1989: 3.14 ERA in 14 IP
    1990: 2.40 ERA in 146 IP

  20. Paul Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Wow, I have never heard of John Tudor and he seemed to be quite effective. Hard to believe he bounced around so much. Given his numbers, I guessed that a sudden injury must have ended his career and he did injure his elbow in the '88 postseason, causing him to miss most of '89. But he came back in 1990 with a 3.1 WAR year! Must have done it with a lot of pain since he quit after that.

  21. 1500+ IP After 1932 With ERA+ 100+ & Never An All-Star » Stathead » Blog Archive Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    [...] of B-R finds above-average innings-eaters who weren’t quite good enough to be All-Stars. Link Posted on Tuesday, April 12th, 2011 at 4:53 pm, Category: Baseball, Tags: all-star-game, bref, [...]

  22. John Q Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 5:46 pm

    @20 Paul,

    Tudor was a hell of a good pitcher. He was kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time. He came up as a Left handed pitcher with the Boston Red Sox during the early 80's, not exactly an ideal place for a lefty. He was good but stats like ERA or W-L didn't tell the whole story. Then he was traded to a mediocre Pirate team in a pitcher's park. It wasn't until he went to a Neutral park with a good defense in St. Louis that he found his groove.

    He was excellent in '85 and if Dwight Gooden hadn't had one of the all time great pitching seasons, he would have won the Cy Young easily.

    He had a couple of freak injuries like punching a fan after the '85 World Series. Then his leg was broken by the Met's catcher Barry Lyons sliding into him in the dugout in '87. He ended up on that WS Dodger team and injured himself in the '88 WS. He missed almost all of '89 and made a tremendous comeback in '90 and for reasons that I'm not aware, he retired after that season.

  23. Jeff Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    @22

    Tudor actually intended to retire after the '89 season but was talked out of retirement by his old St. Louis manager, Whitey Herzog. And Herzog was rewarded with a 12-4 season from Tudor. And it wasn't a lucky 12-4: Tudor's numbers were great all the way across the board in 1990.

    I remember an interview with Tudor after his great '85 season. As I remember it, he began the season with a 1-7 record. A friend saw Tudor on film, and noticed there was something wrong with his pitching delivery. Tudor made the adjustment and went 20-1 the rest of the season. So really his '85 season was even better than it appeared on paper.

    Tudor had an excellent 117-72 career mark, but I think he was unlucky and should have done even better. I don't know if the statistics will back me up. But just imagine how he would have done if he'd spent his whole career in a pitcher's park and avoided injury. Maybe he'll never be a HOFer, but he was damn good and that's how I'll remember him.

    I also remember one of the St. Louis catchers saying that catching Tudor was like a day off behind the plate. I guess that says a lot about Tudor as well.

  24. Jeff Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    And BTW, Tudor had ten shutouts in 1985. TEN.

    This was in 1985, not 1965.

  25. Paul Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 7:00 pm

    Jeff has it right. Plus, Tudor's first two months of '85 show the pointlesness of W-L records in a nutshell. He went 1-5 with a 2.91 ERA, then had a couple iffy starts that knocked him down to 1-7 with a 3.74. Not great for the time, but certainly not 1-7 bad.

    From that point on he went 20-1 with a 1.37 (and he only gave up 3 runs in the sole loss).

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=tudorjo01&t=p&year=1985

    If I can pull a narrative out of my ass (and from wikipedia), he seems like the kind of guy that was never properly valued due to people focusing too much on his crappy seasonal W-L records, plus he was too injury-prone to eat a bunch of innings or have a long peak.

  26. John Q Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    @23 Jeff,

    If I remember correctly it was an old high school coach that saw a small mechanical flaw in Tudor's delivery and told him how to correct it.

    The Tudor for a 35 year old George Hendrick was a great lopsided trade that worked out fantastically for the Cardinals. It always seemed like Whitey Herzog was the beneficiary of trades of this nature whether it was Daryl Porter for Bob McClure or Ozzie Smith for Garry Templeton or Bruce Sutter for Leon Durham or the Jack Clark for Dave Lapoint, Dave Green and Juan Uribe.

  27. LiamQ: Former Haitian President Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier, who has been in the news lately, has a much cooler nickname than he apparently deserves. Doc Rivers' blue-chip son, Austin, who committed to Duke next year, needs a nickname. See where I'm g Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    Is abbot the only guy on the list who has a no-no?

  28. Neil L. Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    Amazing that Ron Darling was selected to the NL 85 all-star team ahead of John Tudor. I think it highlights the arbitrary, capricious, political nature of an at-large, manager's selection.

    Is it only relatively recently that all-star managers have started favoring their own players?

  29. John Q Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    @27,

    A.J. Burnett had one in '01 and Chris Bosio had one in '93. Those are two I found other than Abbot.

  30. Mike Felber Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 9:18 pm

    Thanks John Q.

  31. Stu Baron Says:
    April 12th, 2011 at 10:48 pm

    @28: It's not so amazing when you consider that for the first half of '85, Darling was 9-2, 2.52, 3 CG, and Tudor was 10-7, 2.27, 6 CG. Darling had the better W-L record and Tudor had the slightly better ERA and more CGs. Neither was significantly better or worse than the other. And since the Padres won the NL pennant in '84, this was not a case of the AS manager favoring his own player.

  32. Eric C Says:
    April 13th, 2011 at 12:51 am

    re #22 John Q,

    For those who weren't around in '85, the fan he punched was of the oscillating/air-conditioning variety, not a Ron Artest going-into-the-stands situation.

  33. John Q Says:
    April 13th, 2011 at 1:53 am

    @32 Eric C,

    LOL, I reread what I wrote and I should have been a little more clear that it was an electric fan.

    I agree to what Stu posted @31.

    Darling was a very good from '84-86 so I could see an all star selection in '85. He finished 5th in the ROY in '84 and he was considered one of the up and coming pitchers during the mid 80's. If you go by WAR from '84-86, Darling ranks 14th among all pitchers in MLB.

    He had an awful 1987 season that was masked by great run support and then he got hurt. He bounced back with a decent '88 but his win total was inflated by his run support plus he was still pitching a pitcher's park in a very low offensive year. He was awful in the 1988 NLCS.

    He was pretty awful from 1989 to the end of his career in 1995. He pitched in two pitcher's parks in a relatively low offensive era on some good offensive teams that tended to mask his struggles.

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