Ravelo Manzanillo and lots of walks and strikeouts
Posted by Andy on July 13, 2011
I had never heard of Ravelo Manzanillo before a few minutes ago when I read about him on The Greatest 21 Days. His brother Josias had a much longer major league career.
I noticed that Ravelo had a season with a really high walk rate despite amassing 50 innings pitched. I checked it, and here are the only guys since 1901 to pitch at least 50 innings with a BB/9 and a K/9 both as a high as 7:
| Rk | Player | Year | IP | Tm | G | GS | GF | SV | H | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Oliver Perez | 2009 | 7.91 | 8.45 | 66.0 | NYM | 14 | 14 | 0 | 0 | 69 | 6.82 | 60 |
| 2 | Carlos Marmol | 2009 | 7.91 | 11.31 | 74.0 | CHC | 79 | 0 | 29 | 15 | 43 | 3.41 | 131 |
| 3 | Dennis Sarfate | 2008 | 7.00 | 9.72 | 79.2 | BAL | 57 | 4 | 15 | 0 | 62 | 4.74 | 94 |
| 4 | Brandon Morrow | 2007 | 7.11 | 9.38 | 63.1 | SEA | 60 | 0 | 18 | 0 | 56 | 4.12 | 107 |
| 5 | Shawn Chacon | 2004 | 7.39 | 7.39 | 63.1 | COL | 66 | 0 | 60 | 35 | 71 | 7.11 | 70 |
| 6 | Nick Neugebauer | 2002 | 7.16 | 7.64 | 55.1 | MIL | 12 | 12 | 0 | 0 | 56 | 4.72 | 87 |
| 7 | Doug Creek | 2001 | 7.04 | 9.48 | 62.2 | TBD | 66 | 0 | 16 | 0 | 51 | 4.31 | 105 |
| 8 | John Rocker | 2000 | 8.15 | 13.08 | 53.0 | ATL | 59 | 0 | 41 | 24 | 42 | 2.89 | 160 |
| 9 | Scott Sauerbeck | 2000 | 7.26 | 9.87 | 75.2 | PIT | 75 | 0 | 13 | 1 | 76 | 4.04 | 115 |
| 10 | Jesus Sanchez | 1999 | 7.07 | 7.31 | 76.1 | FLA | 59 | 10 | 8 | 0 | 84 | 6.01 | 72 |
| 11 | Arthur Rhodes | 1999 | 7.64 | 10.02 | 53.0 | BAL | 43 | 0 | 11 | 3 | 43 | 5.43 | 87 |
| 12 | Reggie Harris | 1997 | 7.12 | 7.45 | 54.1 | PHI | 50 | 0 | 13 | 0 | 55 | 5.30 | 81 |
| 13 | Ravelo Manzanillo | 1994 | 7.56 | 7.02 | 50.0 | PIT | 46 | 0 | 11 | 1 | 45 | 4.14 | 105 |
| 14 | Mitch Williams | 1992 | 7.11 | 8.22 | 81.0 | PHI | 66 | 0 | 56 | 29 | 69 | 3.78 | 93 |
| 15 | Bobby Witt | 1991 | 7.51 | 8.32 | 88.2 | TEX | 17 | 16 | 0 | 0 | 84 | 6.09 | 67 |
| 16 | Bobby Witt | 1987 | 8.81 | 10.07 | 143.0 | TEX | 26 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 114 | 4.91 | 92 |
| 17 | Mitch Williams | 1987 | 7.79 | 10.68 | 108.2 | TEX | 85 | 1 | 32 | 6 | 63 | 3.23 | 140 |
| 18 | Bobby Witt | 1986 | 8.16 | 9.93 | 157.2 | TEX | 31 | 31 | 0 | 0 | 130 | 5.48 | 79 |
| 19 | Mitch Williams | 1986 | 7.26 | 8.27 | 98.0 | TEX | 80 | 0 | 38 | 8 | 69 | 3.58 | 121 |
| 20 | Eric Plunk | 1986 | 7.63 | 7.33 | 120.1 | OAK | 26 | 15 | 2 | 0 | 91 | 5.31 | 73 |
| 21 | Mark Clear | 1985 | 8.08 | 8.89 | 55.2 | BOS | 41 | 0 | 30 | 3 | 45 | 3.72 | 117 |
| 22 | Mark Clear | 1984 | 9.40 | 10.21 | 67.0 | BOS | 47 | 0 | 27 | 8 | 47 | 4.03 | 105 |
| 23 | Rod Scurry | 1983 | 7.01 | 8.87 | 68.0 | PIT | 61 | 0 | 25 | 7 | 63 | 5.56 | 67 |
| 24 | John D'Acquisto | 1977 | 9.80 | 9.29 | 52.1 | TOT | 20 | 14 | 2 | 0 | 54 | 6.54 | 56 |
| 25 | Ken Wright | 1973 | 9.15 | 8.37 | 80.2 | KCR | 25 | 12 | 6 | 0 | 60 | 4.91 | 83 |
| 26 | Dick Such | 1970 | 8.10 | 7.38 | 50.0 | WSA | 21 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 48 | 7.56 | 47 |
| 27 | Ed Connolly | 1964 | 7.14 | 8.14 | 80.2 | BOS | 27 | 15 | 6 | 0 | 80 | 4.91 | 79 |
| 28 | Sam McDowell | 1962 | 7.19 | 7.19 | 87.2 | CLE | 25 | 13 | 5 | 1 | 81 | 6.06 | 64 |
| 29 | Ryne Duren | 1962 | 7.19 | 9.34 | 71.1 | LAA | 42 | 3 | 16 | 8 | 53 | 4.42 | 88 |
It's amazing how much more frequently this has been done in the Steroids Era, especially if you ignore Bobby Witt and Mitch Williams specifically.
July 13th, 2011 at 11:39 am
I actually remember him because I'm a White Sox fan, and he was in the Sox minor league organization in the early 1990's. I'm sure I STILL have his minor league card somewhere. Sounds like the Sox made the right move in letting him go! 🙂
July 13th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
if you ignore Bobby Witt and Mitch Williams specifically
Why would I want to do that? They made baseball in my early adulthood ever so much more exciting! (And neither of them ever played for a team I liked, for which I'm deeply grateful.)
July 13th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
I have to admit--Mitch Williams has always been one of my favorite players. And now he's doing a really great job on MLB Network, just further improving my admiration of him.
July 13th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
In contrast, I was curious about guys with high walk rates, and lower K rates, and who could still pitch reasonably well.
Here are the guys with 50+ IP, 7+ BB/9, under 7 SO/9, and an ERA+ of 90 or more.
PLAYER.....................YEAR...BB/9...SO/9...ERA+...IP
Grover Lowdermilk......1916...8.36...4.88...97...51.2
Walter Beall.................1926...7.49...6.17...110...81.2
Charlie Devens...........1933...7.26...3.34...90...62.0
Ken Chase..................1937...7.07...5.07...108...76.1
Johnny Vander Meer...1937...7.36...5.55...97...84.1
Hal Newhouser............1941...7.13...5.51...96...173.0
Ted Gray......................1948...7.59...6.33...104...85.1
Tommy Byrne..............1949...8.22...5.92...109...196.0
Johnny Vander Meer...1950...7.21...5.01...112...73.2
Mickey McDermott.....1950...8.58...6.65...95...130.0
Tommy Byrne..............1950...7.08...5.22...91...203.1
Tommy Byrne..............1951...9.40...4.45...102...143.2
Bob Wiesler................1955...8.32...3.74...97...53.0
Danny McDevitt..........1960...7.13...5.09...94...53.0
Dave Sisler.................1961...7.16...4.48...94...60.1
Rick Ownbey..............1982...7.69...5.01...98...50.1
Steve Avery................1999...7.31...4.78...92...96.0
Robert Ramsay..........2000...7.15...5.72...136...50.1
Tommy Byrne was able to do this 3 years in a row.
Only one guy did this between 1962 and 1998. Notice this hasn't been since 2000, when the guys on Andy's list started to proliferate. Does that mean hitters are too good nowadays for a high-walk, lower-K guy to survive?
July 13th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Doug, Remember that that K/9 has gone up pretty steadily throughout baseball history, While BB/9 has been mostly flat, going up a bit around the "Tommy Byrne era", you see above. I think that if you took most of this pitcher seasons you would find that they were above average for that year in K/9. K/9 = 7 is average today but far above historically.
July 13th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
Tommy Byrne is one of those forgotten Yankees who contributed to their string of pennants in the 40's and 50's. He won 16 games once and 15 games twice. In the 1955 World Series he pitched a complete game against the Dodgers, the only left-hander to do so that entire season. He was also a good hitter.
July 13th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
@5.
Absolutely, Kds.
Your point is very evident in the seasons I found above, as only 3 came after 1961. Nevertheless, there were only those 18 seasons since 1901 - so pretty unusual under any circumstances.
Why have Ks been going up consistently? Is it:
- harder-throwing pitchers (90 mph fastball seems like "table stakes" nowadays for anyone aspiring to be a ML pitcher)
- less disciplined hitters (no longer any stigma to striking out)
- both of the above
- or, something else
July 13th, 2011 at 3:08 pm
Sluggers that swing for the fences, and walk more, also tend to strike out more.
July 13th, 2011 at 4:30 pm
I think it's a combination of factors, harder throwing pitchers and reduced stigma to striking out being among them. I think shorter pitching stints and more use of relievers contributes. I think swinging for the fences contributes. I think pitchers make more of a conscious effort to miss bats more than they did long ago. And I think these factors propagate each other.
July 13th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
What team is TOT?
July 13th, 2011 at 6:19 pm
#10
TOT is not a team, it means that the player played for more than one team that year and TOT means total for all teams.
July 13th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
Jerry Gil is the nephew of Josias and Ravelo Manzanillo. I'm not sure why b-r doesn't have it documented.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gilje01.shtml
Also, has there ever been a wilder pitcher than Brad Pennington? For his career, he had 89 BBs in 75.2 IP (10.6 BB/9). It's a shame he never reached enough innings to qualify for the list.
July 13th, 2011 at 8:45 pm
Camisa, send a note to the site so they can correct it, if you have evidence. Stuff written here doesn't usually filter up to the powers that be.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/feedback/
***
There was a pretty high draft pick, I wanna say within the last 10 years, who was notorious for much worse control than Pennington. I can't remember his name right now, unfortunately.
July 13th, 2011 at 8:46 pm
The guy I'm thinking of never made the majors.
July 13th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Pennington has the most BB/9 of anyone with at least 40 IP in MLB history. Stu Flythe walked 61 in 39.1 IP (14.0).
July 13th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
I know who you're referring to. It's Jason Neighborgall. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=neighb001jas
July 13th, 2011 at 8:57 pm
Of course, there's always Steve Dalkowski, who blew out his arm just as he seemed to be somewhat harnessing his stuff and perhaps headed for the majors. His minor league numbers are unreal, if you've never seen them:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=dalkow001ste
I've seen more complete stats elsewhere. B-R is missing most of his strikeouts, which are as shocking as his walks.
***
Here's the guy I was thinking of. Jason Neighborgall. Third round pick who walked 128 in 42.1 minor league IP. He was wild in college too, so not entirely unexpected.
http://thebaseballcube.com/profile.asp?P=Jason-Neighborgall
July 13th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
@Mustachioed Repetition,
Talk about taking one for the team or a manager leaving a guy out there too long.
That single IP in '07 by Neighborgall in South Bend, consisted of 9 wild pitches and 12 BB.
9 Wild pitches!!!!
Do you think they were primarily on his out-pitch with a runner on third? Or was he reticent to throw it with that 15.00 WHIP (which is nice, cause it seems he neither hit or killed anyone).
July 13th, 2011 at 11:46 pm
I was always curious when I saw the pitching staff of the Philadelphia Athletics and the fact they ...as a team.....had more Walks than Strike Outs...for about 3 years in a row, yet were at or above .500 around the late 40's early 50's....how that not only possibly to do but acceptable.
I guess they did not have dorks like us calling the out on the net.
July 13th, 2011 at 11:56 pm
Do you think they were primarily on his out-pitch with a runner on third?
Ha.
July 13th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
Actually, I checked his stats again cause 9 WP and 12 BB would be insane, and indeed, the 1 IP covered FIVE games. That makes more sense. I guess?
July 14th, 2011 at 12:02 am
Ghost, as kds mentioned, walked rates spiked in the late '40s, especially in the AL. Tommy Byrne was an extreme Stengel pitcher, who didn't seem to care too much if his pitchers walked guys because he had a great defense which turned a lot of DPs. The league K/BB ratio was under 1.0 from '47-'51, so the A's were nothing out of the ordinary. (And actually it had been under 1.0 most of the liveball era. It went back over 1.0 in '52 and never looked back.)
July 14th, 2011 at 12:52 am
In 2001, at the age of 37, Ravelo Manzanillo was the dominant pitcher in the Mexican League:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/leader.cgi?type=pitch&id=6bec5ada
He went 16-3 with a 1.52 ERA (league mark 4.59), with 202 Ks and just 56 walks in 184 IP, and a 0.85 WHIP.
So perhaps the Ollie Perez story could still have a happy ending....
July 14th, 2011 at 8:37 am
@23, JA. I know we are all rooting for Ollie Perez. He's an inspiration. I wonder if the proliferation of steroid era pitchers in this group is a function of a greater emphasis on working the count (moneyball stuff), and more hitters willing to swing hard with two strikes, because if they get a hold of it, they can hit it out. Not a lot of choking up on the bat these days.
July 14th, 2011 at 9:26 am
Report Created on Baseball-Reference.com
July 14th, 2011 at 9:33 am
Player SO/9 BB/9 IP Year
Mark Clear 10.21 9.40 67.0 1984
Ryne Duren 12.31 9.00 49.0 1960
John DAcquisto 9.29 9.80 52.1 1977
Rob Dibble 10.58 9.07 41.2 1993
Aroldis Chapman 13.29 9.14 21.2 2011
Rick Ankiel 10.13 9.38 24.0 2001
Mark Wohlers 9.74 14.61 20.1 1998
Mitch Williams 9.45 10.80 20.0 1994
July 14th, 2011 at 9:45 am
Sorry, still not a master of transfers.
Any help or suggestions from the MASTERS.
I know it is easy, but humor this idiot, I just want to paste a BRref table onto this blog!!!
Not a HTML guy, just copy&paste dude.
Anyway I made that table when Ryne Duren passed. Quite a feat. 9 K per 9 & 9 BB per 9. I was surprised a young pre-Angel Nolan Ryan didn't make the list.
But the list is loaded with potential and 'coulda beens.'
In fact, after the Carter (I shutter to mention him on this site) but Williams imploded, and the combined rates of his last 4 seasons are 9 & 9 K & BBs.
Clear and D'Aquisto are the two who took me by surprise. Never thought of them as SO guys.
Hopefully Chapman can harness his potential. I can see him being the next Randy Johnson. Once The Unit put his control issues behind him, or at least cut down on his BB, he went from mediocre at 27 years old, to Hall Of Famer. Supposedly before his breakout season, he was tutored by Nolan Ryan. Anyone remember that story. i recall both not talking about what was said or done... but it obviously worked.
July 14th, 2011 at 10:15 am
@26-27, Duke -- It's not you, it's the system. Only "editors" may paste a table into a comment ... and FWIW, I'm not even an editor at this point.
July 14th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
Interesting split - anyone on that list who started more than one game was below-average in ERA (sub-100 ERA+). Mitch Williams (who only started once for TEX in 87) is at 140 ERA+. The other pitchers were all exclusively relievers and nine of the fourteen were above-average in ERA that year. It seems reasonable to conclude that a guy with control problems is more easily hidden in the bullpen - except, of course, when he's Oliver Perez.
And related, there's gotta be a great article to be found in Bobby Witt's career. He was the third-overall pick in the draft, made the majors the following year, and faced over 11,000 batters with a sub-100 ERA+. He's 22nd on the all-time list for walks allowed. And his top statistical comp for ages 27 and 28, of course, is Oliver Perez.
Makes me wonder if Ollie could have pitched ten more years if he'd debuted in the 80's, and if Witt would have been moved to the bullpen if he were pitching now.
July 14th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
I have noticed that the SF Giants pitching staff has an incredible avg and ops against left handers. They are almost a whole 10% better than the next team. what is the record for the best BA against or OPS against left handers for a team over the course of the season.
Right now they are at .207 for BA, the next team is .233 TB.
Right now they are at .583 for OPS, the next team is .640 SEA.
just curious.
July 14th, 2011 at 7:37 pm
At Night Fly,
In Bobby Witt's first two years, he either struck out or walked first 43% of batters faced then 45% in his second year.
I don't know of a better way of checking, but I think for qualifying pitchers, 45% has got to be a record.
I eyeballed a few of the usual suspects (Unit, Nolan, Fellar, etc.) but they all were in the low 40's.
Any guesses of how to run a more conclusive check.
I think it would be interesting to see.
I'm guessing there are a ton of relievers that go or went over 50%, but for a starter, pitching at least 162, I can't see anyone getting near 50%.
July 14th, 2011 at 8:24 pm
@31, Duke -- Witt's 1986-87 (SO+BB)% may be a record for the number of innings he pitched, but FYI, he didn't qualify for the ERA title either year. He had 157.2 IP in '86 and 143 IP in '87.
I don't have definitive answers for any of these, but here are the highest percentages I can find:
Min. 100 IP -- Mitch Williams (Witt's 1987 teammate) had a (SO+BB)% of 47.55% of batters faced, with 108.2 IP.
Min. 50 IP -- Carlos Marmol in 2010 fanned or walked 57.2% of all BF.
Also -- Mark Clear '84 and John D'Acquisto '77 are the only pitchers ever with 50+ innings and both more strikeouts and more walks than IP.
July 14th, 2011 at 8:53 pm
@ JA
I found some weird seasons from Bob Turley. In '54 he had 181 BB and 185 SO, leading the league in both.
Ditto for Sad Sam Jones, 198 K, 185 BB, both led the league.
JR Richard 303 K, 141 BB, both led the league.
And of course Fellar and Ryan had 200 BB&Ks in multiple seasons.
July 14th, 2011 at 10:11 pm
@31
If I have done my work correctly the highest percentage for a pitcher with at least 162 IP is 42.8% by Nolan Ryan in 1977.
July 15th, 2011 at 12:59 am
@Richard Chester
The Unit in '01 had 372 K+ 71 BB = 443/994 = 44.56%
Did you count HBP?
If so,
Unit in '01 is 46.3%
Pedro in '99 does a 42.99%.
Unit in '91 is at 44%.
July 15th, 2011 at 1:31 am
Kerry Woods rookie year 1998 45.5% for 162 innings (166.2)
Randy Johnson 2001 44.6% for 200 innings (249.2)
July 15th, 2011 at 2:09 am
For Career (> 1000 IP) Kerry Wood 38.3% (active)
For Retired (> 1000 IP) Nolan Ryan 37.7%
For Career (> 100 decisions) Mitch Williams 38.6%
July 15th, 2011 at 9:54 am
@ Charles,
Are you using HBP?
July 15th, 2011 at 10:02 am
no
July 15th, 2011 at 10:07 am
@35, @36
Thanks for the corrections, I had suspected a flaw in my methodology.
July 15th, 2011 at 10:14 am
I was a huge fan of that 1984 Mark Clear season.
July 15th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@Ramzavail
Imagine if the Red Sox kept him in '86?
He had his best year after going to the Brewers.
In '86 his ERA+ jumped from 117 to 199. His WHIP fell almost .4.
He almost lost a hit per 9 innings.
His walks per 9, went down 3.7 and his Ks per 9 went up 1.5.
All in almost 20 more innings.
Who was the Brewers' pitching coach that year?
Either way, hoorah for the Mets.
July 16th, 2011 at 1:50 am
Based on some prior research, June 30 1994 was the first time brothers saved MLB games on the same day. Those two brothers happened to be Ravelo and Josias Manzanillo. It was Ravelo's only MLB save (in 53 appearances) while Josias amassed just 6 saves in his 267 MLB appearances. I believe that feat has only been accomplished once since, when Tim and Todd Worrell pulled it off on June 13 1997.
July 17th, 2011 at 9:48 am
@43 Not the same, but twice Dizzy Dean recorded a save in a game his brother Paul won.